RE: Mazda MX-5 vs Toyota GT86
Discussion
VeeFource said:
Is it possible to unplug or take out the fuse for the EPAS motor in most cars? I guess it would throw an error if the same loom is used to monitor steering angle for the ESP etc.
You'd also presumably end up having to turn the motor when you steered, which wouldn't do wonders for the steering. One would have to take a look at the suspension design/geometry before considering removing power steering. Most cars these days have very big castor angles, for example, which make the steering incredibly heavy without assistance but which help the car steer into and out of slides nicely.
Removing power steering will not be a realistic option.
I do hope that manufacturers might see that there is a point to re-introducing hydraulic steering racks in drivers' cars.
Removing power steering will not be a realistic option.
I do hope that manufacturers might see that there is a point to re-introducing hydraulic steering racks in drivers' cars.
I think ePAS is to save cost and emissions. It is not to provide better steering feel. There is always going to be a degree of synthetic feel to an electrically assisted rack.
That's not to say that ePAS won't get good, but I see it as being a little bit like digitally stored music versus vinyl - the former can be extremely good but ultimately, there is something it can't quite capture compared to vinyl.
Years have been and will be spent trying to calibrate ePAS for better feel, when manufacturers could just put in a good hydraulic rack today!
That's not to say that ePAS won't get good, but I see it as being a little bit like digitally stored music versus vinyl - the former can be extremely good but ultimately, there is something it can't quite capture compared to vinyl.
Years have been and will be spent trying to calibrate ePAS for better feel, when manufacturers could just put in a good hydraulic rack today!
braddo said:
I think ePAS is to save cost and emissions. It is not to provide better steering feel. There is always going to be a degree of synthetic feel to an electrically assisted rack.
In my experience there's always a degree of synthetic feel to an assisted rack, whether electric or hydraulic. EPAS systems may well catch up with HPAS in the end if manufacturers can be bothered but they'll only bother if there's a commercial reason for the investment and the simple fact is most buyers don't care. Whilst economy figures are the main reason for the change there are advantages other advantages to EPAS over HPAS - it's simpler meaning it's cheaper to install, easier to package and probably ultimately more reliable; it's lighter; it's easier to program in variable assistance;... given that very few buyers, even of sports cars, know what steering feel is I don't see manufacturers going back to HPAS.
Personally I'll stick with my unassisted rack.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 25th August 10:43
kambites said:
In my experience there's always a degree of synthetic feel to an assisted rack, whether electric or hydraulic. EPAS systems may well catch up with HPAS in the end if manufacturers can be bothered but they'll only bother if there's a commercial reason for the investment and the simple fact is most buyers don't care.
Whilst economy figures are the main reason for the change there are advantages other advantages to EPAS over HPAS - it's simpler meaning it's cheaper to install, easier to package and probably ultimately more reliable; it's lighter; it's easier to program in variable assistance;... given that very few buyers, even of sports cars, know what steering feel is I don't see manufacturers going back to HPAS.
Personally I'll stick with my unassisted rack.
Unassisted is fine in a 700kg car with the engine in the back. But a 1200+kg car with the engine in the front. Well if you never need to park it or do slow speed manoeuvring, then fine. But that's pretty unlikely in a normal road car.Whilst economy figures are the main reason for the change there are advantages other advantages to EPAS over HPAS - it's simpler meaning it's cheaper to install, easier to package and probably ultimately more reliable; it's lighter; it's easier to program in variable assistance;... given that very few buyers, even of sports cars, know what steering feel is I don't see manufacturers going back to HPAS.
Personally I'll stick with my unassisted rack.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 25th August 10:43
Not too mention with heavier steering in such cars, if you need to dial in opposite lock quickly, it's a heck of a lot harder and more effort.
And lets not forget there hasn't been a World Rally Car without PAS for decades and these are probably the best drivers in the world driving on surfaces that require the most feel. Yet they seem to manage perfectly fine.
clarki said:
I recon a convertible GT86 is what Toyota need to work on = more sales + some competition for the mx5, which at the moment in it's price bracket really has none!! Bad for us petrolheads.
Commercial suicide. Chopping the roof off would make it heavier, slower and handle worse. It would not come anywhere near competing with the MX5 and would hurt sales of the coupe as the brand lost credibility.ORD said:
Commercial suicide. Chopping the roof off would make it heavier, slower and handle worse. It would not come anywhere near competing with the MX5 and would hurt sales of the coupe as the brand lost credibility.
Or b) they get it right??I think keeping the cost down would be tough though.
Wont be long until I order my new mx5. Full spec'd on the configuration for £23.5k is good value.
ORD said:
clarki said:
I recon a convertible GT86 is what Toyota need to work on = more sales + some competition for the mx5, which at the moment in it's price bracket really has none!! Bad for us petrolheads.
Commercial suicide. Chopping the roof off would make it heavier, slower and handle worse. It would not come anywhere near competing with the MX5 and would hurt sales of the coupe as the brand lost credibility.
Except not fashionable enough!clarki said:
I recon a convertible GT86 is what Toyota need to work on = more sales + some competition for the mx5, which at the moment in it's price bracket really has none!! Bad for us petrolheads.
The convertible 370z was dropped to to lack of sales IIRC they sold 8 in the UK one year liner33 said:
The convertible 370z was dropped to to lack of sales IIRC they sold 8 in the UK one year
Wheres the success of the MX5 has seen it selling for over 25 years now - I think they would be better to follow that design philosophy, no??Anyway, I know it won't happen, just an idea I threw out there, that's all.
clarki said:
Wheres the success of the MX5 has seen it selling for over 25 years now - I think they would be better to follow that design philosophy, no??
Anyway, I know it won't happen, just an idea I threw out there, that's all.
Different markets though i think the GT86 has more in common with the 370 than the mx5 although I have heard those that have owned both describe the '86 as very much like a MX5 with a roof Anyway, I know it won't happen, just an idea I threw out there, that's all.
clarki said:
liner33 said:
The convertible 370z was dropped to to lack of sales IIRC they sold 8 in the UK one year
Wheres the success of the MX5 has seen it selling for over 25 years now - I think they would be better to follow that design philosophy, no??Anyway, I know it won't happen, just an idea I threw out there, that's all.
GT...But the fact it was designed as a tin top 2+2. To make it a convertible it'll end up weighing more, with a less stiff chassis, not as good handling, smaller boot, smaller rear seat area, slower and more expensive.
Now it might be it'd still be a brilliant car, just never as good as the car it was based on. In large market like the US maybe this would be ok and you'd still sell enough. But I think people would always compare it to the coupe version.
On the flip side, I'd quite like Mazda to make an MX-5 GT. I love soft tops, but the looks of a coupe are pretty much always superior.
In my experience, the main problem with non-PAS these days is most people (even on here!) think a car without PAS is undriveable. I run a Mk1 MX-5 with a depowered (i.e. quick ratio) rack and it's sublime. Hugely better than the rather girl PAS anyway. Feel and feedback with an unassisted rack will always be superior. It's not even that heavy, once you've adapted - even with 1050kg kerb weight and an iron engine block over the front wheels. Sadly, most people just drive at parking speed and go 'ewww, it's heavvvy' and ask for PAS.
The 'butch' idea that you need PAS for those lighting-fast dabs of oppo is also nonsense. The quickest opposite lock will always come from letting go... Most of the weight put into opposite lock comes from the momentum of the car twisting the rack, with you adding or subtracting a guiding amount of steering angle as needed. The extra weight also makes catching a slide much more natural, too - as you can feel the balance point through the weight of the steering. Previously I just had to guess at a steering angle and often ended slides with a slight fishtail. I've a lovely video somewhere of me trying three times to catch a slide at Llandow...
As for Rally cars, the use of PAS probably has more to do with driver fatigue - running a very quick rack, combined with lots of steering action over a prolonged period with lots of power through the front wheels probably makes fatigue a big issue. Plus 'feel' might not be so important, as rally cars tend to steer from the rear rather than lean on the front on turn in... but I'm just guessing. I'm not a rally driver.
As for the 4C, I heard that most of the steering problems stemmed from poor geometry settings, and many who'd test-driven the car very much liked the steering. I certainly applaud alfa for bravely ditching PAS. Pity they couldn't bravely put a proper gearbox in it too.
Anyway. PAS is for parking, not driving. If parking easily is more important to you than driving, fill yer boots.
The 'butch' idea that you need PAS for those lighting-fast dabs of oppo is also nonsense. The quickest opposite lock will always come from letting go... Most of the weight put into opposite lock comes from the momentum of the car twisting the rack, with you adding or subtracting a guiding amount of steering angle as needed. The extra weight also makes catching a slide much more natural, too - as you can feel the balance point through the weight of the steering. Previously I just had to guess at a steering angle and often ended slides with a slight fishtail. I've a lovely video somewhere of me trying three times to catch a slide at Llandow...
As for Rally cars, the use of PAS probably has more to do with driver fatigue - running a very quick rack, combined with lots of steering action over a prolonged period with lots of power through the front wheels probably makes fatigue a big issue. Plus 'feel' might not be so important, as rally cars tend to steer from the rear rather than lean on the front on turn in... but I'm just guessing. I'm not a rally driver.
As for the 4C, I heard that most of the steering problems stemmed from poor geometry settings, and many who'd test-driven the car very much liked the steering. I certainly applaud alfa for bravely ditching PAS. Pity they couldn't bravely put a proper gearbox in it too.
Anyway. PAS is for parking, not driving. If parking easily is more important to you than driving, fill yer boots.
daemon said:
Fair point.
Its the same length as a 370z, and close to the same width, yet the 370z packs near 130BHP more and has a 3.7 litre v6 beneath its similarly proportioned bonnet.
I had hankered after a 370z black edition since they came out. So the time came to make the purchase. I took a test drive and hated it. The need for a V6 was dampened by terrible road noise from the tyres and when the windows were rolled down the wind noise drowned out the engine note. I wanted to love this car. My next choice was the BRZ. Drove it , loved it, never fear putting fuel in it. It's a fun car that you can travel miles in. Its the same length as a 370z, and close to the same width, yet the 370z packs near 130BHP more and has a 3.7 litre v6 beneath its similarly proportioned bonnet.
See one in the flesh and drive it on a good test drive. I've had mine nearly 2 years and still love it.
NDNDNDND said:
In my experience, the main problem with non-PAS these days is most people (even on here!) think a car without PAS is undriveable.
Not me.200hp+ V8 and approx 1100kg.
Although you really don't appreciate how good PAS can be until you drive something like this off road and suffer how violently the wheel can be torn from your hands...
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