'Deadly' Keyless Ignitions

[nunpuncher]

Natural selection.

[kambites]

Swanny87 said:

The thing the surprises me the most is that The Guardian is the source. It's the kind of thing I'd expect to see in the Daily Wail...

If it was the Daily Wail, the headline would probably have been something hysterical stating that the worlds biggest car makers were covering up the fact their cars were deadly, rather than a slightly dry factual article about the legal case.

[mini me]

The Wookie said:

Devils advocate for a moment: driver pulls up in garage attached to house, stop/start kicks in and engine cuts, driver hops out with key in his pocket and wanders off for his dinner not realising the car is still effectively switched on, battery starts to drain with the electrical systems on, stop/start detects this and fires the car back up, car sits idling in garage all night gradually gassing the occupants of the house who have no idea it's running.

That would be st design.

On our systems if the module sees a door open this disables stop start until doors is closed and it has seen vehicle speed > 0 for a time to ensure that this situation doesn't occur.

We also have a 30 min timer for engine running with no driver inputs. If this timer elapses the engine is switched off.

Edited by mini me on Thursday 27th August 11:53

[M6L11]

The Wookie said:

Devils advocate for a moment: driver pulls up in garage attached to house, stop/start kicks in and engine cuts, driver hops out with key in his pocket and wanders off for his dinner not realising the car is still effectively switched on, battery starts to drain with the electrical systems on, stop/start detects this and fires the car back up, car sits idling in garage all night gradually gassing the occupants of the house who have no idea it's running.

That would be st design.

Unless American supplied cars are vastly different than ours, you'd be a bit more than daft to make that 'mistake' though. During stop/start cycles my car has a light on the dash (as well as all the usual lights). If the key is removed (eg I'm stopped on the drive and my wife takes it to open the front door to grab a forgotten item) the car beeps loudly and a big red warning flashes up that the key is missing. If I open the driver's door it squeals at me and big red letters flash up saying turn off the engine you fool. That's at least three different indications that you need to press the 'off' button. Pretty hard to miss, even for an American.

[Zod]

Article said:

According to the complaint filed in Los Angeles federal court, carbon monoxide is emitted when drivers leave their vehicles running after taking their electronic key fobs with them, under the mistaken belief that the engines will shut off.

How could you be so stupid? Does the car start on its own when you get in? No. You press the "Start/Stop Engine" button. You do the same to stop the engine. Only an imbecile could fail to understand.

If you're that stupid, just RTFM (assuming you can read).

[Blaster72]

Super Slo Mo said:

Blaster72 said:

Mmm, good point! Don't diesels still produce CO2 though, maybe they throw out enough to cause problems if left long enough.

CO2 is Carbon Dioxide, without wishing to state the obvious. I understood that the Carbon Monoxide output from diesels was extremely low, although whether it's below the danger threshold I have no idea.

The other thing though is that it's the USA we're talking about, where they have very few diesel cars in general use.

Thanks Super Slo Mo for stating the obvious!! My mistake - I meant CO not CO2, must be the climate change guff that's addled my brain.

[The Wookie]

mini me said:

On our systems if the module sees a door open this disables stop start until doors is closed and it has seen vehicle speed > 0 for a time to ensure that this situation doesn't occur.

We also have a 30 min timer for engine running with no driver inputs. If this timer elapses the engine is switched off.

Edited by mini me on Thursday 27th August 11:53

That sounds sensible and what I'd expect. I'm assuming it's a widely used system (as there are few that aren't), are the alternatives the same?

[The Wookie]

M6L11 said:

Unless American supplied cars are vastly different than ours, you'd be a bit more than daft to make that 'mistake' though. During stop/start cycles my car has a light on the dash (as well as all the usual lights). If the key is removed (eg I'm stopped on the drive and my wife takes it to open the front door to grab a forgotten item) the car beeps loudly and a big red warning flashes up that the key is missing. If I open the driver's door it squeals at me and big red letters flash up saying turn off the engine you fool. That's at least three different indications that you need to press the 'off' button. Pretty hard to miss, even for an American.

Different systems on different cars! One car I have in at work wails deafeningly at you if you open the driver's door without the park brake on but if you walk away from the running car with the key it bongs three times with the same sound as the initial seatbelt warning and only a small dialogue on the central display. If you're out of the car you don't hear it!

It would more than likely fail the 'would my mum get it wrong' test!

[Mr2Mike]

romeogolf said:

If the engine shut off when the key was no longer detected you'd have a much larger problem when the battery in the fob runs out and your car turns off while you're driving it.

No, thanks.

RFID systems do not rely on batteries in the key device. The transponder is powered by a low power rf field generated by the vehicle, which is why the range is very low.

The battery in the keys is only for alarm activation and remote locking/unlocking.

[tomjol]

kambites said:

Swanny87 said:

The thing the surprises me the most is that The Guardian is the source. It's the kind of thing I'd expect to see in the Daily Wail...

If it was the Daily Wail, the headline would probably have been something hysterical stating that the worlds biggest car makers were covering up the fact their cars were deadly, rather than a slightly dry factual article about the legal case.

The thing that surprises me the most is that nobody's aimed a whole ream of insults at the OP for reading/linking to the Guardian!

[Mr2Mike]

Super Slo Mo said:

Hang on, that article goes on about Carbon Monoxide poisoning, I thought that problem or feature of exhaust emissions had all but vanished with the advent of the catalytic convertor.

That's why people don't gas themselves in cars anymore isn't it?

Exhaust fumes can still cause asphyxiation by displacing oxygen though.

[DoctorX]

tomjol said:

The thing that surprises me the most is that nobody's aimed a whole ream of insults at the OP for reading/linking to the Guardian!

Just reading the sport and saw this, honest!

[TooMany2cvs]

Mr2Mike said:

Exhaust fumes can still cause asphyxiation by displacing oxygen though.

Yes, they can - but diesel/catted petrol exhaust isn't anywhere NEAR as dangerous as non-catted petrol exhaust is, thanks to the CO.

[Madkat]

Why can't i 'like' posts on this forum. There's so many here i'd like to give a big thumbs up too.

Second the cull of ambulance chasers and similar lawyers.

[Pistachio]

The other problem is you can have the key, get out of the car and let someone jump in they can drive off without the key no worries.
It has happened

[Adamski69]

I hate keyless go. As far as I can see it was a solution to a problem that never existed.

If the keys themselves weren't the size of a small planet and actually fitted comfortably in your pocket it wouldn't be so bad but what was wrong with getting in the car putting the key in and turning it? Effectively this gave us:

1. somewhere safe and convenient to put the key when getting in the car
2. a means to enable and disable the thing completely when putting it in twisting it and reversing the procedure when taking the key out
3. no poncing about trying to find the poxy brick sized fob when you finish your journey

One of the cars in my house has this issue. Drives me nuts, 'JUST MAKE A F*****G HOLE FOR IT LIKE THERE ALWAYS USED TO BE. To33ers.

There rant done, now I am going to get in one of the other cars and use the key as god intended!

[The Wookie]

I'm going to go against the crowd again and say I like keyless go. Being able to walk up to a locked car and open a door or the boot without fumbling around for the key is great, as is being able to lock it with a touch on the door handle. Basically shove the key in your pocket when you leave the house and forget about it until you come home.

The seemingly numerous security issues are a bit disconcerting but in terms of convenience I think it's great.

[P700DEE]

MOT CO specs
For vehicles registered between 1st August 1975 and 31st July 1986, the CO level must not exceed 4.5% by volume.

For vehicles registered between 1st August 1986 and 31st July 1992, the CO level must not exceed 3.5% by volume.

Vehicles registered after 1st August 1992 must conform to the manufacturers specification (the MOT testing garage usually checks these values on a database). The carbon monoxide level is tested at two speeds; “idle” and “fast idle”. Although the specification varies between car models, the guidelines are generally 0.5% at idle and 0.3% at fast idle.

Effects of CO
Concentration Symptoms
35 ppm (0.0035%) Headache and dizziness within six to eight hours
100 ppm (0.01%) Slight headache in two to three hours
200 ppm (0.02%) Slight headache within two to three hours
400 ppm (0.04%) Frontal headache within one to two hours
800 ppm (0.08%) Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45 min;
1,600 ppm (0.16%) Headache, increased heart rate, dizziness, and nausea within 20 min; death in less than 2 hours
3,200 ppm (0.32%) Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten minutes. Death within 30 minutes.
6,400 ppm (0.64%) Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes. Convulsions, respiratory arrest, and death in less than 20 minutes.
12,800 ppm (1.28%) Unconsciousness after 2–3 breaths. Death in less than three minutes.

Most cars will register well below the CO maxima allowed for the test but it is still possible to gas yourself "accidentally".

[HTP99]

The Wookie said:

Devils advocate for a moment: driver pulls up in garage attached to house, stop/start kicks in and engine cuts, driver hops out with key in his pocket and wanders off for his dinner not realising the car is still effectively switched on, battery starts to drain with the electrical systems on, stop/start detects this and fires the car back up, car sits idling in garage all night gradually gassing the occupants of the house who have no idea it's running.

That would be st design.

With Renault's, if you pull up to a stop and the Stop/Start system turns off the engine, as soon as the drivers door is opened, the car turns off permanently, it won't restart itself if you get out, shut the door and wander off.

I would imagine that other manufacturers employ a similar system.

As for leaving an engine running with a keyless system, I've done it in the past, only to find out when I've returned to the car from doing a bit of shopping,with the car still running.

Edited by HTP99 on Thursday 27th August 23:15

[Wills2]

I have read about people leaving their cars at stations and them starting up again due to this feature, people are a bit dim and you can pull up engine stops lock the car and it will start up again even though you and the key are miles away.