RE: 250 orders for new TVR
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
This is my only reservation about this project. All the names and brands involved are very exciting but no one in the industry is gossiping about where this car is being put together. It does lead you to believe that the site isn't set up yet and as such two years to market seems very bullish. However, I do wonder if the iStream process is such that test cars can be build on GM's existing set up meaning that the factory and production line is not as initially critical for building the first cars as it would be under traditional/conventional manufacturing methods?
RoverP6B said:
250 orders for a plastic kitcar with a rebadged Ford engine that may or may not ever even be built..
And yet the car which you claim to have been the best car you've ever owned was slung together by half cut, incompetant part timers, built out of iron oxide and powered by a U.S. engine. 
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It's pretty sharp to be throwing around the 2017 date when they must know it is completely unreal. I would be interested to see the internal cash flow projections - I would be amazed if they are projecting to have any cars sold before 2018, let alone actually out of the door. If it's anything like manufacturing businesses that I have seen start up, they have to:
Raise the capital. Not clear whether this has been done.
Initial car designs for initial proof of concept. Not clear whether this has been done.
And THEN the following, none of which has been done:-
Find a possible factory location.
Further design work.
Locate the principal staff.
Secure lease.
Negotiate initial supply contracts.
Raise more capital.
Add further staff.
Start building prototypes / mules.
Testing.
More testing.
Panic. Borrow more money.
Add more staff.
Mass production.
You can probably add 'Run out of cash' about 5 times in the above, too
2017 is fantasy. It worries me that they've used it to get deposits. I assume that they need the deposits as proof of concept and market for the purpose of raising capital!
Something to bear in mind is that LE is rather solvent and TVR is a consortium of about 8/9 people like him.
If a couple of the names Ive heard are correct then there can't be any concerns over capital to get this venture underway and revenue generative, nor would there be any great hurdles to borrowing.
They own a large parts business so suspect that will help potentially in getting new parts supply up and running.
If a couple of the names Ive heard are correct then there can't be any concerns over capital to get this venture underway and revenue generative, nor would there be any great hurdles to borrowing.
They own a large parts business so suspect that will help potentially in getting new parts supply up and running.
ZOLLAR said:
PGNCerbera said:
ZOLLAR said:
Off topic I've just read your M5s cost per month stats 
I get disgruntled with my Discoveries MPG but 16mpg! heavy foot (three point turn wheel spin
) or is that the MPG they usually run at?
I drive a lot like an old lady to be honest but most of it is in central London. And the three point turn totally caught me out - it was a bit wet and I've driven some quick cars but the M5 is crazy. Done 20k miles in 18 months now - Amazing car but totally daft for what I am using it for! Actually went in to buy the i3 but the wait was 6 months and I just couldn't get on board with the range anxiety / looks of the i3. I get disgruntled with my Discoveries MPG but 16mpg! heavy foot (three point turn wheel spin
) or is that the MPG they usually run at?With the M5's, I'm sure other owners are averaging early 20's mpg. It states 28 average cycle !!! lol
good man
DonkeyApple said:
RoverP6B said:
250 orders for a plastic kitcar with a rebadged Ford engine that may or may not ever even be built..
And yet the car which you claim to have been the best car you've ever owned was slung together by half cut, incompetant part timers, built out of iron oxide and powered by a U.S. engine. Ever put money into a Kickstarter project and seen it go into a puff of smoke?
This is Kickstarter on a larger scale, and hats off to those with the commitment to the brand to do so.
Risk-taking should be encouraged, not pooh-poohed, especially with the credentials of PistonHeads and TVR.
I'd be seeing it as a potential write-off if I'd had the cash to drop £5k on it, and I reckon most here with the will to drop £55-75k on a sports car will think along the same lines.
Bravo, thank you for assisting in bringing my favourite car marque back to life. However you rate your chances.
As for a punt on a name, the Bravura would fit the nomenclature nicely. Even if it was a rather rubbish car in Grand Theft Auto (I'd forgotten that, checking if the name had been used for a car before, using Google).
This is Kickstarter on a larger scale, and hats off to those with the commitment to the brand to do so.
Risk-taking should be encouraged, not pooh-poohed, especially with the credentials of PistonHeads and TVR.
I'd be seeing it as a potential write-off if I'd had the cash to drop £5k on it, and I reckon most here with the will to drop £55-75k on a sports car will think along the same lines.
Bravo, thank you for assisting in bringing my favourite car marque back to life. However you rate your chances.
As for a punt on a name, the Bravura would fit the nomenclature nicely. Even if it was a rather rubbish car in Grand Theft Auto (I'd forgotten that, checking if the name had been used for a car before, using Google).
epom said:
Bet it won't be under £85k. If it's made at all.
I wonder exactly what sort of car they are intending to build tbh?I mean, the last TVRs which were around i the early 2000's had a rather different market in which to exist!
Consider that a tweeky Caterham is the best part of £50k and that has about 7 moving parts and tooling that was paid off back in 1643!
There is NO way you can engineer a modern car from the screen to volume production in less than 2 years, even when that car is as basic as it can legally be. How long did the Zenos for example take to get to series production? (and that has no roof, doors, or electronic feature content, and uses a comeplete, pre-homologated off-the-shlef powertrain from Ford Power Products!
Or hows about a BAC mono, nicely designed, but a basic spaceframe and another off-the-shelf powertrain, yours for approx £85k
Unless TVR can buy a complete powertrain tech suite from an out of production volume manufacturer then there product is going to be necessarily basic. (much like AML did with the DB9 / V8V, borrowing most of the electrics from the Ford global empire)
Things like getting your doors to shut properly, and then pass crash testing, and not leak, cause wind noise, and to stay like that for more than a week is non trivial. The big OEMs spend millions on things like simple door handles, and build large number of prototypes to test the performance and durability of these basic but necessary items. Companies like Zeno don't fit doors for a very good reason!
So, making a fast car is easy, making a GOOD fast car, rather more difficult......
Max_Torque said:
I wonder exactly what sort of car they are intending to build tbh?
I mean, the last TVRs which were around i the early 2000's had a rather different market in which to exist!
Consider that a tweeky Caterham is the best part of £50k and that has about 7 moving parts and tooling that was paid off back in 1643!
There is NO way you can engineer a modern car from the screen to volume production in less than 2 years, even when that car is as basic as it can legally be. How long did the Zenos for example take to get to series production? (and that has no roof, doors, or electronic feature content, and uses a comeplete, pre-homologated off-the-shlef powertrain from Ford Power Products!
Or hows about a BAC mono, nicely designed, but a basic spaceframe and another off-the-shelf powertrain, yours for approx £85k
Unless TVR can buy a complete powertrain tech suite from an out of production volume manufacturer then there product is going to be necessarily basic. (much like AML did with the DB9 / V8V, borrowing most of the electrics from the Ford global empire)
Things like getting your doors to shut properly, and then pass crash testing, and not leak, cause wind noise, and to stay like that for more than a week is non trivial. The big OEMs spend millions on things like simple door handles, and build large number of prototypes to test the performance and durability of these basic but necessary items. Companies like Zeno don't fit doors for a very good reason!
So, making a fast car is easy, making a GOOD fast car, rather more difficult......
I agree. Although after 21 years of continuous TVR ownership I still find it is their failings coined with some real genius in cost/corner cutting that makes me love them, yet the world has very much moved forward in the last decade and I struggle to imagine that the modern Briton would find any pleasure from non Germanic plastics and engineering etc. It's definitely a different market place. I mean, the last TVRs which were around i the early 2000's had a rather different market in which to exist!
Consider that a tweeky Caterham is the best part of £50k and that has about 7 moving parts and tooling that was paid off back in 1643!
There is NO way you can engineer a modern car from the screen to volume production in less than 2 years, even when that car is as basic as it can legally be. How long did the Zenos for example take to get to series production? (and that has no roof, doors, or electronic feature content, and uses a comeplete, pre-homologated off-the-shlef powertrain from Ford Power Products!
Or hows about a BAC mono, nicely designed, but a basic spaceframe and another off-the-shelf powertrain, yours for approx £85k
Unless TVR can buy a complete powertrain tech suite from an out of production volume manufacturer then there product is going to be necessarily basic. (much like AML did with the DB9 / V8V, borrowing most of the electrics from the Ford global empire)
Things like getting your doors to shut properly, and then pass crash testing, and not leak, cause wind noise, and to stay like that for more than a week is non trivial. The big OEMs spend millions on things like simple door handles, and build large number of prototypes to test the performance and durability of these basic but necessary items. Companies like Zeno don't fit doors for a very good reason!
So, making a fast car is easy, making a GOOD fast car, rather more difficult......
But 250 people willing to place £2.5-£5k down is pleasing to see. How many are just rubber neckers on the ride who will take their money back when asked to confirm the order waits to be seen but I hope not too many.
i was just thinking of Zenos when reading top of this page then MaxT clarifies things at the bottom of the page.
Out of interest, when did Zenos start? i thought it was just over 2 yrs ago?
But as you say, doors and roofs changes a lot.
Much of this is to do with management ability, clear direction and focus. If LE and the team are capable then i believe TVR can return, and with a quality product too, if a year or so late. It's not as though the process is unknown if you engage with your eyes open. I'm sure LE is selling 2017 to push his team knowing that it'll be easier to manage through a delay in two years time rather than give everyone a date 5 years out today. Tough gig, i hope he succeeds.
Out of interest, when did Zenos start? i thought it was just over 2 yrs ago?
But as you say, doors and roofs changes a lot.
Much of this is to do with management ability, clear direction and focus. If LE and the team are capable then i believe TVR can return, and with a quality product too, if a year or so late. It's not as though the process is unknown if you engage with your eyes open. I'm sure LE is selling 2017 to push his team knowing that it'll be easier to manage through a delay in two years time rather than give everyone a date 5 years out today. Tough gig, i hope he succeeds.
soad said:
F1, SLR and "Rocket".
The Rocket was a barely-road-legal bike-based track toy, I'm talking real road cars. The SLR wasn't Murray's design, it was an M-B project handed to McLaren to make it lighter. All he's done since is produce vapourware, and most of it very undesirable (e.g. T25).ORD said:
I think it looks pretty bloody awesome. Unlikely, but awesome!
The "Ford engine" in question is a bloody peach, apparently, and is going to be fettled by Cosworth. It sounds likely to be a damn sight better than a lot of engines that people wet their knickers about on here.
I have made myself clear on this subject before. The TVR should use a straight-six. That, and only that (in a front-engined application, I hasten to add), is a proper sports car engine.The "Ford engine" in question is a bloody peach, apparently, and is going to be fettled by Cosworth. It sounds likely to be a damn sight better than a lot of engines that people wet their knickers about on here.
madbadger said:
There are few places in the world where Gordon Murrays CV would be criticised. Not really surprising that 2015 era PH is one of them.
I'm only 11 years younger than Murray, I remember his glory days. I've a lot of respect for what he achieved in grand prix racing and with the F1, but he's yesterday's man, and has not produced anything worth speaking about in many years.El Guapo said:
Do you chaps honestly believe that new (currently unspecified) TVRs will be leaving the (currently non-existent) TVR factory for delivery via the (yet to be established) TVR dealer network in 2017 or even 2018?
Please listen carefully: It's not going to happen.
This is what concerns me. Some guy buys a brand, comes up with a spec, starts inviting deposits, with not a sausage to prove the project exists, let alone viable...Please listen carefully: It's not going to happen.
DonkeyApple said:
And yet the car which you claim to have been the best car you've ever owned was slung together by half cut, incompetant part timers, built out of iron oxide and powered by a U.S. engine.
Everything rusted then, it was otherwise very well-built, drove brilliantly and was powered by a British engine based on an American block architecture... but that's by the by. The point is, at the moment, no evidence exists that a new TVR will ever be brought to market, and the timescales quoted are laughable.Let me make myself clear: I love the TVR brand, I loved the sheer attitude and charisma the Peter Wheeler-era cars (especially towards the end, the Tuscan, Tamora etc), and I would be heartily cheered up to see it return. The present plans are just obviously lacking credibility.
RoverP6B said:
soad said:
F1, SLR and "Rocket".
The Rocket was a barely-road-legal bike-based track toy, I'm talking real road cars. TI have made myself clear on this subject before. The TVR should use a straight-six. That, and only that (in a front-engined application, I hasten to add), is a proper sports car engine.
I would disagree on two counts; the Rocket was a fully road legal car('barely legal'? It is either legal or it isn't. And it was.)It wasn't primarily a track car either although I am sure that some Rockets have done track days. It attracted huge praise for packaging and style but was too expensive to sell in big numbers.Like a Seven or an Atom I don't doubt that with the right clothing long trips were easily possible.
Straight sixes can make a lovely noise , true, and can produce lots of torque and power . But to say it is the only type of engine for a front engined sports car is just nonsense I'm afraid. E Types, Healeys and Astons may have had them - and TVR too- but what about V6s, V8s, Straight 8s and V12s(eg TVR again , any muscle car Cobras etc,Bugatti T35, and a legion of front engined V12 Ferraris and Lamborghinis . If a250 GTo isn't as sports car I really don't know what the hell is. Straight 4s too- the Lotus twin cam was good enough for the Elan and I have yet to be convinced that anybody has made a better small sports car.
)
RoverP6B said:
Let me make myself clear: I love the TVR brand, I loved the sheer attitude and charisma the Peter Wheeler-era cars (especially towards the end, the Tuscan, Tamora etc)...
Sorry, have to pull you uo on this one, this doesn't sound much like you 'love the TVR brand' to me:RoverP6B said:
250 orders for a plastic kitcar with a rebadged Ford engine....blah blah blah
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