RE: 250 orders for new TVR
Discussion
twizellb said:
Axionknight said:
Even when it doesn't start?
Share your experience with us please.My Dad owned a Cerbera for just less than four years, back when I wah ah lad, a beautiful machine without a doubt but it was plagued by electrical gremlins despite not being and old or abused car, it also had to go back to the factory under warranty due to the crankshaft seals (IIRC) weeping.
All in all, not that reliable and ownership experience were his very words. He did love the thing, though
God yes, the six was an awful engine. A PH survey a few years ago showed around 21k miles on average between rebuilds. Some did better, a lot did worse, much worse. There are now a few rebuilders selling modified ones with long warranties but the price is such that you already paid for the next two rebuilds anyway.
The AJP V8 has no known inherent problems other than getting it through an MOT somtimes. Many over 100K miles without problems. Both use the same clutches and they are pretty piss poor. <15k miles is not unknown but some do last almost reasonable mileages. The problem was with the fingers on the diaphragm spring breaking mainly rather than plate wear. Also leaky slave cylinders which are concentric affairs inside the bellhousing so bigger job than it needed to be when it fails.
The AJP V8 has no known inherent problems other than getting it through an MOT somtimes. Many over 100K miles without problems. Both use the same clutches and they are pretty piss poor. <15k miles is not unknown but some do last almost reasonable mileages. The problem was with the fingers on the diaphragm spring breaking mainly rather than plate wear. Also leaky slave cylinders which are concentric affairs inside the bellhousing so bigger job than it needed to be when it fails.
fatjon said:
God yes, the six was an awful engine. A PH survey a few years ago showed around 21k miles on average between rebuilds. Some did better, a lot did worse, much worse.
The AJP V8 has no known inherent problems other than getting it through an MOT somtimes.
My AJP V8 made it to 19k miles and then needed rebuilding and a new clutch...I am beginning to think it was a Speed Six in disguise! The AJP V8 has no known inherent problems other than getting it through an MOT somtimes.
All this TVR talk is making me want another big time!
Now this is a bit weird. In 8 years I have had very few electrical gremlins. One slow window, a speedo sensor, the wiper motor packed up and the alternator fuse burned out. Mine lives in a dry garage though so maybe that is a very important factor for these cars.
My Mitsubishi truck which is 4 years old has had more electrical problems, My wifes 350z has had its fair share too. Both of those sit outside all year round though so maybe it's not exclusively a TVR thing?
Looking at the TVR wiring it's fair to say it aint pretty so lets hope they do a bit better on the new one, a few waterproof connectors would not go amiss and being able to change a headlight bulb without a post lift and an hours work would be nice too. Maybe also an alternator that is not an afterthought in the V under the inlet manifolds? A starter motor that doesn't require an ambidextrous dwarf to change it? Electric door poppers are nice until the battery runs flat and your are stood there in the pissing rain wondering how to get to the bonnet lock inside the car! Worse still, when you are locked in the car and the red hot exhaust manifolds have finally ignited the GRP 2" away and fried the battery leads so the "get me out of here button" no longer works.
All in all there are many little improvements TVR can make on this new model and they really are not rocket science. Lets hope someone is listening so they can turn out a fast car that is also a good, well thought out car, now that would sell. I think what they need is a bit of product testing and someone willing to say "no, that's a s
t idea" or "dead customers do not become return customers".
My Mitsubishi truck which is 4 years old has had more electrical problems, My wifes 350z has had its fair share too. Both of those sit outside all year round though so maybe it's not exclusively a TVR thing?
Looking at the TVR wiring it's fair to say it aint pretty so lets hope they do a bit better on the new one, a few waterproof connectors would not go amiss and being able to change a headlight bulb without a post lift and an hours work would be nice too. Maybe also an alternator that is not an afterthought in the V under the inlet manifolds? A starter motor that doesn't require an ambidextrous dwarf to change it? Electric door poppers are nice until the battery runs flat and your are stood there in the pissing rain wondering how to get to the bonnet lock inside the car! Worse still, when you are locked in the car and the red hot exhaust manifolds have finally ignited the GRP 2" away and fried the battery leads so the "get me out of here button" no longer works.
All in all there are many little improvements TVR can make on this new model and they really are not rocket science. Lets hope someone is listening so they can turn out a fast car that is also a good, well thought out car, now that would sell. I think what they need is a bit of product testing and someone willing to say "no, that's a s
t idea" or "dead customers do not become return customers".dvs_dave said:
I imagine no better or worse than what you currently get from the likes of Ferrari
er, i'm going for a "huge amount worse aerodynamics" than Ferrari! (be that total downforce or total drag! This is because:1) Ferrari spend millions on aerodynamics
2) Ferrari have their own (moving floor) wind tunnel & multi-million pound CFD suite
3) Ferrari also run an F1 team, which generally speaking, makes you pretty good at aero dev
TVR have less than two years, and probably a total of £50M to knock out the entire car. No way have they got the time, skills or cash to even start thinking about such total rollocks as "ground effect aero dynamics" if they are, then it just shows how out of touch with reality they actually are (and doesn't bode well)
Compare that to say Zenos, who seem to be making a successful go of things so far, who pretty much said "We aren't going to try anything extreme, we are just going to try to make a simple GOOD sports car".
Jasandjules said:
Out of four TVRs, two had awful electrics. But a good auto electrician can re-wire the lot for not too much money IME......
i always wondered about this and thought the same, best just to fix these things properly. Water pump too. it's not that expensive and the cars aren't depreciating.It's a bit like saying K Series Elises have engine problems. They don't, the K Series is a great engine, light and revvy. best spend a few hundred on a proper head gasket, plus cams while you're there ;-), and you're all set.
Or, having a nice car and never having the geo checked. jeez....
Some Gump said:
I actually laughed when I read the latest RoverPost. I'd love to do a venn diagram to try to work out which cars (if any) fit into the P6B definition of "british sports car". You'd have guessed that between Morgan, Lotus, Westfield, Caterham, DAX, Sylva, Fisher, MEV, Bentley and Jaguar that at least one would make a sports car - seems not.
All Jaguar sports cars had I6 engines. The later V12 and V8 cars are GTs. The F-type is basically a V8 muscle car, albeit with a bodged V6 derivative. Morgan - mainly crude cars that could hardly be called sporty, and recently some rather fine muscle cars - the I6-powered Eva GT had the potential to be the best Morgan ever. DAX - Cobra replicas, and generally fine - but those are muscle cars. In any case, most DAX Cobras use Jag V12s. Lotus, Caterfield, MEV, Fisher, Sylva (I'll add Ariel, Radical and BAC) - trackday specials for the most part, mainly kit cars (and heavily governed by cost considerations). Lotus's one venture into the more rarified world of the sports car was the deeply disappointing Esprit, which was all looks and no go - at least until it got the twin-turbo flat-plane V8 (which was effective as a powerplant, if far from ideal in configuration and aspiration). The only truly sporty Bentley was the Speed Six - with, you guessed it, an inline six. Aston Martin's sports cars of the David Brown era were all I6-powered, and a fair few MGs got I6s too, as did the Triumph TR-5, TR-250, TR-6. Austin-Healey 3000. Even the much-maligned MGC had more potential in it than many realised, even though the BMC C-series I6 was a dreadful thing - a pig-iron OHV boat anchor. Bristol made some fine sports cars with BMW I6s, as did Frazer-Nash (including a license-built BMW 328). The AC Ace and Aceca also used BMW and (I think!) Ford I6 power.HarryW said:
Exactly, waste of time replying directly to anything posted. You can add to the list; GM is a unsuccesful designer and Cosworth have done nothing of note too.
Barking.....
Gordon Murray had a fine career in Formula One, and designed one hugely significant road car 20 years ago - but he has produced nothing of note since.Barking.....
Cosworth these days are known mainly for their underpowered, unreliable F1 V8 of a few years ago, frequently seen blowing up in the back of a Marussia, Lotus/Caterham or Hispania/HRT. Their glory days, in F1 and on the road, are a long time ago now.
xRIEx said:
Plus WRC (and various other rally classes, including many Group B prototypes of their day) and Rallycross, Formula Ford, Formula Renault 1.6 & 2.0, Formula Palmer Audi (now defunct), various Radicals, Caterham, RGB and other kit car race series, most of the 750MC's classes, Ginetta G40s (and other Ginettas), GP3, Formula 3 - those off the top of my head and a couple of minutes googling.
Mainly very minor or cost-governed feeder formulas where use of road-derived cheap, plentiful engines is necessary. Rallying used to use a variety of engines, but is now I4-only for political reasons...dvs_dave said:
That doesn't answer the question at all. It's just more spin and avoidance.
To help you more, all the Jensen and Invicta proved was that crap, ugly cars don't sell. You really think a more exotic/bespoke engine would have saved them??? Do you need reminding of Koenigssegg? I suppose you're a self proclaimed authority on those as well?
And the Ricardo stuff, you need putting straight on that too. In 2006, TVR under Smollensky approached Ricardo to develop the Speed Six to Euro 5 emissions. Rumor on the TVR forum at the time was that the quote was around 5M quid. The deal was never closed and no work ever done. In the decade since, Euro 6 is the minimum standard that must now be complied with. The Speed Six cannot be re-engineered to meet Euro 6 and beyond (2020 CO2 targets are the next big challenge), confirmed by Cosworth backed LE making statements on the topic such as, "it wouldn’t last long in terms of emissions demands" and "an insurmountable challenge".
Of course you think you know better from the perspective of your mum's garden shed filled with rusty old Rover parts, but you've yet to suggest anything remotely sensible or viable. So please answer my original question specifically. If you can't (and we all know you can't), then please have some dignity, accept that you're out of your depth and move on.
The Jensen and Invicta were fine cars in all other respects, and I thought they looked good too, but the market clearly ignored them and went on buying 911s. Koenigsegg had a lot of trouble with the Ford engine and these days use a completely bespoke unit, albeit I think still based on the Modular block architecture. I saw an interview with Les Edgar in which he mentioned the Speed Six and having been quoted about £5 million to bring it up to Euro 6 - I think it was in CAR magazine, but I can't be sure - and he has clearly now chosen the Ford motor on cost grounds and is now using the supposed lack of sustainability of the Speed Six to support his decision. The rationale is deeply flawed. However, this isn't all that's flawed about Edgar's plans - there is precisely 0% chance of an 1100kg, profitable, £70-75k TVR being delivered to customers in 2017. Ferrari and Lamborghini have proved that you can make hugely powerful naturally-aspirated engines meet Euro 6 rules without going silly in terms of piston speeds, even at 9000 RPM. This TVR needs to be 100% bespoke, priced in the £125-150k bracket (around where the McLaren 570S, 911 Turbo and Aston Martin V12 Vantage are), with a naturally-aspirated or perhaps supercharged I6 or V12 engine (not a bought-in V8 crate motor that you can also have in a Ford F-150) and a beautiful hand-crafted interior as per the old Wheeler-era TVRs. That would sell - the £75k crate-motor special with bought-in switchgear etc won't.To help you more, all the Jensen and Invicta proved was that crap, ugly cars don't sell. You really think a more exotic/bespoke engine would have saved them??? Do you need reminding of Koenigssegg? I suppose you're a self proclaimed authority on those as well?
And the Ricardo stuff, you need putting straight on that too. In 2006, TVR under Smollensky approached Ricardo to develop the Speed Six to Euro 5 emissions. Rumor on the TVR forum at the time was that the quote was around 5M quid. The deal was never closed and no work ever done. In the decade since, Euro 6 is the minimum standard that must now be complied with. The Speed Six cannot be re-engineered to meet Euro 6 and beyond (2020 CO2 targets are the next big challenge), confirmed by Cosworth backed LE making statements on the topic such as, "it wouldn’t last long in terms of emissions demands" and "an insurmountable challenge".
Of course you think you know better from the perspective of your mum's garden shed filled with rusty old Rover parts, but you've yet to suggest anything remotely sensible or viable. So please answer my original question specifically. If you can't (and we all know you can't), then please have some dignity, accept that you're out of your depth and move on.
For your information, my mother died 22 years ago, and my shed has long been devoid of Rover parts.
dvs_dave said:
MX5 is made entirely of steel. TVR is composites, likely less safety gubbins, and also luxuries.
The TVR will be somewhat bigger than the MX5, and will have to have just as much built-in safety. It will have to be a luxurious car, because nobody buys £75k stripped-out track specials, not without a mainstream model to support it. If Porsche tried making only a GT3RS, it wouldn't last five minutes.I can't believe I'm biting, but anyway...
Speed Six would barely pass E5 (which is what would have cost 5 million to do), never mind E6. It's too old. The end.
Cosworth - Audi, Aston, Porsche are recent clients. Their name is still known, still valid, still desirable, and an ideal draw to bring in potential TVR customers who can remember the Sierra and Escort Cossys.
You don't understand TVR. They aren't Aston, they aren't Porsche, they certainly aren't dancing donkeys or the italian tractor co, they're blue collar power if you like, cheaper but with devastating performance and looks. And a TVR needs, and is getting, a V8. It's also getting ABS, TC and airbags. Probably some door bars and a T350-type roll cage as well, but if it is built in small numbers they can get around some of the crash testing and stupid EU stuff that makes modern cars so heavy - I think.
Question : if you had the money, would you buy one? Place a deposit for 2018 (2017 is sold out)? Buy an old Griff or Cerbera? I think I know the answer.
Speed Six would barely pass E5 (which is what would have cost 5 million to do), never mind E6. It's too old. The end.
Cosworth - Audi, Aston, Porsche are recent clients. Their name is still known, still valid, still desirable, and an ideal draw to bring in potential TVR customers who can remember the Sierra and Escort Cossys.
You don't understand TVR. They aren't Aston, they aren't Porsche, they certainly aren't dancing donkeys or the italian tractor co, they're blue collar power if you like, cheaper but with devastating performance and looks. And a TVR needs, and is getting, a V8. It's also getting ABS, TC and airbags. Probably some door bars and a T350-type roll cage as well, but if it is built in small numbers they can get around some of the crash testing and stupid EU stuff that makes modern cars so heavy - I think.
Question : if you had the money, would you buy one? Place a deposit for 2018 (2017 is sold out)? Buy an old Griff or Cerbera? I think I know the answer.
Ahahahaha!! I swear it'd be the best venn diagram ever.
Elite
Excel
Elan
Eclat
Elise
Europa
Exige
Evora
...Just because the example you've used is possibly the only Lotus to stray from sportscar towards GT...
nutter said:
Lotus's one venture into the more rarified world of the sports car was the deeply disappointing Esprit, which was all looks and no go - at least until it got the twin-turbo flat-plane V8 (which was effective as a powerplant, if far from ideal in configuration and aspiration).
So if they're no sportscars, what are:Elite
Excel
Elan
Eclat
Elise
Europa
Exige
Evora
...Just because the example you've used is possibly the only Lotus to stray from sportscar towards GT...
RoverP6B said:
Aston Martin are still making a 20-year-old N/A V12 pass emissions.
It doesn't really matter as they are on record saying it will have a V8:TVR said:
When settling on the specification for the all-new TVR we had certain essential criteria in mind.
The new car had to be:
British in every way
True to TVR’s DNA and heritage
V8, front-engined with manual transmission & rear wheel drive
A two seat coupe/convertible
Breathtaking in appearance and performance
Incredible value for money
Source: http://tvr.co.uk/newcarThe new car had to be:
British in every way
True to TVR’s DNA and heritage
V8, front-engined with manual transmission & rear wheel drive
A two seat coupe/convertible
Breathtaking in appearance and performance
Incredible value for money
RoverP6B said:
Aston Martin are still making a 20-year-old N/A V12 pass emissions.
And yet they (a car manufacturer larger than TVR with greater financial backing) thought the best way forward was to change to a twin turbo V8 from a major manufacturer that's two thirds the capacity of the old engine.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff