RE: 250 orders for new TVR
Discussion
worrying isn't it.Digger said:
8 days and nearly 400 posts since he first entered the thread and you people still don't have the ability to just ignore him.
But he's the most fun on this thread! It's like Lewis Hamilton's latest fashion shoot - you can't imagine it could get any worse, and then Boom - leftfield change you weren't expecting. I still can't work out if p6B is having a laugh on the other side of the internet somewhere, or if he's sat ranting at the screen because everyone else is wrong. I hope it;s the former, but I'm amusing myself quite happily either way.RoverP6B said:
Aston Martin are still making a 20-year-old N/A V12 pass emissions.
Ford are. The factory in Germany that builds the engines that go in Astons is a Ford factory. Aston pay for the exclusive use of the engines and to have their name over the door. And of course, Aston couldn't afford to pay Ford to continue keeping the engines compliant or to build smaller units so have done a replacement deal with AMG. RoverP6B said:
I saw an interview with Les Edgar in which he mentioned the Speed Six and having been quoted about £5 million to bring it up to Euro 6 - I think it was in CAR magazine, but I can't be sure.....Ferrari and Lamborghini have proved that you can make hugely powerful naturally-aspirated engines meet Euro 6 rules.......This TVR needs to be 100% bespoke, priced in the £125-150k bracket.....perhaps a supercharged I6.......
No, LE has never said that about the Speed Six and Euro 6. All he's said is that it's not possible. The only way you're going to get a Euro 6 complaint Speed Six is by name only, i.e. naming a completely new ground up engine the "Speed Six".Sure, Ferrari/Fiat and Lamborghini/VW can make Euro 6 NA performance engines with their virtually unlimited budgets, economies of scale in the case of Audi/Lambo, and fitting them to cars with a starting price (base R8) of 120 grand. As for Ferrari, the only NA engine they do that's Euro 6 complaint is the V12 in the laFerrari, and that's because of the hybrid drive. That same engine in the F12 and below is only Euro 5. So in Ferrari's case they could only make it work in a car with a 1M+ quid price tag. That's why their volume models are all now turbo V8s. Aston V12 Euro 6? hahhaha yea right, that'll be why they're switching to AMG V8 turbo power rather than designing their own ground up bespoke motor, which they haven't done since the 70's.
Suggesting TVR should be in the 150 grand price bracket shows you have a deep misunderstanding of what TVR has been about for it's entire history.
And now you're talking about an FI I6?? Next you'll be proclaiming as though it's your idea that a crate V8 is the way to go, so muddled you've become.
So in short you've just posted yet more nonsense and avoided answering the question. For the fourth time, how do you propose TVR deliver a competitive Euro 6 complaint NA I6 (or any bespoke motor for that matter) at a price point suitable for them as a startup?
Edited by dvs_dave on Friday 4th September 00:52
xRIEx said:
And yet Aston Martin (a car manufacturer larger than TVR with greater financial backing) thought the best way forward was to change to a twin turbo V8 from a major manufacturer that's two thirds the capacity of the old engine.
DonkeyApple said:
Ford are. The factory in Germany that builds the engines that go in Astons is a Ford factory. Aston pay for the exclusive use of the engines and to have their name over the door. And of course, Aston couldn't afford to pay Ford to continue keeping the engines compliant or to build smaller units so have done a replacement deal with AMG.
I am and have always been aware that AM's engines come from Ford in Köln. The AMG V8 is replacing the existing V8. The technical partnership with M-B is solely about the V8 engine. The V12 is being retained for the time being - the existing supply deal with Ford is for another two years and may be renewed - and remains viable for a while yet. AMG is not replacing it at the moment, and AM has said that they will always need a naturally-aspirated 12-cylinder engine.joncon said:
please explain how the morgan eva gt could have been the best morgan ever....just because it had a straight 6 ...?
it was never made
they never used the engine in any morgan cars
the roadster went down the v6 mustang route....
The Eva GT was stunningly pretty, it was a practical 2+2 and was building on the success of the Aero series (which are fine-handling beasts but just too cramped inside for daily use). It wasn't made because Charles Morgan was sacked in disgraceful circumstances by his sister and brother-in-law, who seem determined to drag the firm back to the dark ages (much to the chagrin of the workforce at Malvern). The N54, while turbocharged, is still a good straight-six engine and has a pretty nice linear power-band. It would have made a good partner to that chassis. The Morgan V6 roadster is a much cheaper car, which is why it uses a cheap engine.it was never made
they never used the engine in any morgan cars
the roadster went down the v6 mustang route....
Jalopnik articles about this.
http://jalopnik.com/all-the-new-tvrs-are-already-s...
Talk of superchargers, convertibles, USA, SUV's
, and 2016 Goodwood FOS prototype debut.
http://jalopnik.com/tvrs-new-boss-plans-to-make-sc...
Talk of the engine being on the dyno since November '15, one make race series, Le Mans, and test mules being out and about.
So anyone that's near Gordon Murray's place, be on the lookout for a not quite right looking sports car. What will the test mule be disguised as? An old TVR, or something completely different to throw people of the trail? Eyes peeled folks!!!!!
http://jalopnik.com/all-the-new-tvrs-are-already-s...
Talk of superchargers, convertibles, USA, SUV's
, and 2016 Goodwood FOS prototype debut.http://jalopnik.com/tvrs-new-boss-plans-to-make-sc...
Talk of the engine being on the dyno since November '15, one make race series, Le Mans, and test mules being out and about.
So anyone that's near Gordon Murray's place, be on the lookout for a not quite right looking sports car. What will the test mule be disguised as? An old TVR, or something completely different to throw people of the trail? Eyes peeled folks!!!!!
Edited by dvs_dave on Friday 4th September 03:31
Max_Torque said:
dvs_dave said:
I imagine no better or worse than what you currently get from the likes of Ferrari
er, i'm going for a "huge amount worse aerodynamics" than Ferrari! (be that total downforce or total drag! This is because:1) Ferrari spend millions on aerodynamics
2) Ferrari have their own (moving floor) wind tunnel & multi-million pound CFD suite
3) so on and so on....
Edited by dvs_dave on Friday 4th September 03:09
dvs_dave said:
Max_Torque said:
dvs_dave said:
I imagine no better or worse than what you currently get from the likes of Ferrari
er, i'm going for a "huge amount worse aerodynamics" than Ferrari! (be that total downforce or total drag! This is because:1) Ferrari spend millions on aerodynamics
2) Ferrari have their own (moving floor) wind tunnel & multi-million pound CFD suite
3) so on and so on....
Edited by dvs_dave on Friday 4th September 03:09
on the autobahn at 120mph. Fitted the Tuscan 2 front winglets at about 250 quid and it was fine 
What price does the car need to be? Not that I'm even close to being in the market for one, but I think even £75k is a push.
Is this new model supposed to be brand re-generator? If so, surely it needs to be really affordable, like £50-60k max. I think if they can achieve that, and get enough cars into the market, then that's the kickstart they need to start evolving and expanding their range, perhaps into more exotic ~£100k models.
I think £100k+ for the initial model would be too 'boutique' of TVR, it really needs to be relatively good value for money in this market.
Is this new model supposed to be brand re-generator? If so, surely it needs to be really affordable, like £50-60k max. I think if they can achieve that, and get enough cars into the market, then that's the kickstart they need to start evolving and expanding their range, perhaps into more exotic ~£100k models.
I think £100k+ for the initial model would be too 'boutique' of TVR, it really needs to be relatively good value for money in this market.
RoverP6B said:
The Eva GT was stunningly pretty, it was a practical 2+2 and was building on the success of the Aero series (which are fine-handling beasts but just too cramped inside for daily use). It wasn't made because Charles Morgan was sacked in disgraceful circumstances by his sister and brother-in-law, who seem determined to drag the firm back to the dark ages (much to the chagrin of the workforce at Malvern). The N54, while turbocharged, is still a good straight-six engine and has a pretty nice linear power-band. It would have made a good partner to that chassis. The Morgan V6 roadster is a much cheaper car, which is why it uses a cheap engine.
Please stop. The 2010 Eva didn't make it into production because Morgan didn't have the money. As one of the people who placed a deposit for one I seem to recall following it rather closely. Due to the lack of funds they invested in the US license for the 3 wheeler to bring in some easy, low end revenues and they also chose to take the regional development grant for electric vehicles.
They did not and sadly still do not have the money for the Eva. CM being removed was also one of the plans for cutting costs and stopping a large amount of the crazy expenditure. The fact that CM hasn't found a normal job since 2013 does tend to suggest why the Board felt he was better as a figurehead and not actually involved in doing anything important.
I've always hankered after a Morgan since a child and hearing stories from my grandfather about how HFS would race his uncle up their driveway. My great uncle's Bugatti always won apparently. So the failure to built the Eva was a huge disappointment. But it's also why I kept with TVR.
smithyithy said:
What price does the car need to be? Not that I'm even close to being in the market for one, but I think even £75k is a push.
Is this new model supposed to be brand re-generator? If so, surely it needs to be really affordable, like £50-60k max. I think if they can achieve that, and get enough cars into the market, then that's the kickstart they need to start evolving and expanding their range, perhaps into more exotic ~£100k models.
I think £100k+ for the initial model would be too 'boutique' of TVR, it really needs to be relatively good value for money in this market.
It's a fine line. If not a science. Is this new model supposed to be brand re-generator? If so, surely it needs to be really affordable, like £50-60k max. I think if they can achieve that, and get enough cars into the market, then that's the kickstart they need to start evolving and expanding their range, perhaps into more exotic ~£100k models.
I think £100k+ for the initial model would be too 'boutique' of TVR, it really needs to be relatively good value for money in this market.
They need to be able to steadily push the price up over the coming years to retain and build margins so if they launch too cheap then it will cripple them for the essential price growth. But as you say, too expensive and they won't get enough or any volume.
I would guess from just looking around the market place that sub £60k sends out the wrong message and over £100k won't get any sales at this stage. As for where to pin the actual price within that range, I'd be looking at the finance deals and determine the RRP based on what monthly figure looks right. It's 2015 and in sure TVR understand that sales will all be about the finance aspect of they want to grow orders beyond hardcore enthusiasts.
dvs_dave said:
appreciate that, but aero follows the laws of diminishing returns in terms of investment dollars. So whilst ultimately Ferrari aero will be better, it's not all that expensive or difficult to get 90% of that without massive investment but a lot of know how. Something GM isn't lacking in...
I don't think it is that difficult to apply the basics of aero, it's just the cost and skill needed to go beyond. Edited by dvs_dave on Friday 4th September 03:09
Geoffrey Marsh has run ground effect Astons for a couple of decades and people like Malcolm Hamilton have applied aero to their cars on the tiniest of budgets.
You'd think that with Murray they would be able to achieve just enough to be able market that they have proper aero.
But what is also interesting is that it shows that Edgar does genuinely understand TVR as this is just another historic issue that the media can beat TVR with that he is nipping in the bud.
I suspect most of us have had the front of their TVR lift at some point. I recall climbing the hill approaching Calais in the days when speeding in France was just an economic option and suddenly having that feeling of aquaplaning! It's a very well known problem for nearly all TVRs at high speed so designing in some actual aero is required with the new design as well as being vital for helping shut up the journos that are waiting to tear TVR apart.
skyrover said:
A factory built Ultima costs around £67,000
This is in the region what I would expect of the TVR
That would suggest the TVR will need to be well north of that figure unless Ultima are taking the piss?This is in the region what I would expect of the TVR
Those extra refinements that TVR needs over the Ultima imply a lot more man hours and development cost etc.
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