RE: 250 orders for new TVR
Discussion
RoverP6B said:
TVR need a USP... and I don't see one. A cheaply-tweaked crate motor... couldn't they even find a mildly more interesting crate motor to use? Persuade Toyota to supply them with 1GZs, tweaked by their motorsport team?
Because the coyote is a far more suitable engine. The 1gz is an expensive, low volume v12 fitted to an obscure luxury car and which offers far less power and zero aftermarket support.
TVR would be signing their death warrant again if they went down that route
TVR need a bit of luxury at the kind of price point they're going to need in order to be profitable, and a low-volume engine (not something you could have in a likely better Mustang for under 40k). Sure, a stock GZ doesn't make much power, but it's a good tuning base, there are some insane twin-turbo GZ Supras and suchlike.
Several hundred people in the country will know that the car is using a tweaked crate engine. We probably account for half of the people who might care. And most of us don't even think it's a bad thing.
The vast majority of people will just care about how it sounds, how much power it puts out, etc.
For my part, I've no problem at all with large capacity American V8s. They are very far from being the worst engines for sports / GT cars. I bet, for example, that I will prefer this tweaked Coyote to the new turbo 6s in 911s. If an engine is more characterful than the current 911 engine, that shows it is pretty damn good given the constraints of the age.
Rover does have a bit of a point about the Mustang, though - that is the elephant in the room for pricing. But I've beaten the 'Keep the price down!' drum, before, and I don't think TVR is listening
To be fair, they can't - they just have to go fairly bold on pricing and hope the car absolutely nails it on all other measures and, to be frank, gets a bit of goodwill from the motoring press. If the car is good, I think it will get plenty of press support and will have a decent chance of 'getting away with' the price.
Bear in mind that a new 991.2 S (with a bloody turbo s
tbox engine) is going to cost over £100k with options. £75k would look like value, maybe.
The vast majority of people will just care about how it sounds, how much power it puts out, etc.
For my part, I've no problem at all with large capacity American V8s. They are very far from being the worst engines for sports / GT cars. I bet, for example, that I will prefer this tweaked Coyote to the new turbo 6s in 911s. If an engine is more characterful than the current 911 engine, that shows it is pretty damn good given the constraints of the age.
Rover does have a bit of a point about the Mustang, though - that is the elephant in the room for pricing. But I've beaten the 'Keep the price down!' drum, before, and I don't think TVR is listening
To be fair, they can't - they just have to go fairly bold on pricing and hope the car absolutely nails it on all other measures and, to be frank, gets a bit of goodwill from the motoring press. If the car is good, I think it will get plenty of press support and will have a decent chance of 'getting away with' the price. Bear in mind that a new 991.2 S (with a bloody turbo s
tbox engine) is going to cost over £100k with options. £75k would look like value, maybe.ORD said:
Bear in mind that a new 991.2 S (with a bloody turbo stbox engine) is going to cost over £100k with options. £75k would look like value, maybe.
That looks like the same pricing ratio as when TVR went bump. 2005: basic 911 £65K, fully loaded TVR, £65K; 2015: basic 911 £100K, fully loaded TVR, £100K.tbox engine) is going to cost over £100k with options. £75k would look like value, maybe.TA14 said:
ORD said:
Bear in mind that a new 991.2 S (with a bloody turbo stbox engine) is going to cost over £100k with options. £75k would look like value, maybe.
That looks like the same pricing ratio as when TVR went bump. 2005: basic 911 £65K, fully loaded TVR, £65K; 2015: basic 911 £100K, fully loaded TVR, £100K.tbox engine) is going to cost over £100k with options. £75k would look like value, maybe.As for the Mustang comparison, my point was not that the two cars are similar (they arent), but that "muscle car" is not a descriptor that sits well with high prices. The TVR will have to differentiate itself from both supercars and muscle cars (being cheaper than the former, which is good, but more expensive than the latter). I think that is quite easy to do as long as the car ticks some boxes like having HPAS rather than EPAS, correctly positioned and weighted pedals, a nice 6MT.
Any ideas where the 6MT is going to come from? A good one, coupled with a nice clutch action, could make or break the car.
TVR were doing fine last time around until they started fiddling about with engines instead of buying them off the self and sticking them in a characterful sportscar. To sell sportscars you need to impress customers with bits they CAN see, not bits that they CAN'T.
Oh but it's for Le Mans. So TVR are going to pull something out of the shed which will meet and beat Ferrari, Aston, Corvette, Porsche with their long experience and big budgets? Don't hold your breath.
Oh but it's for Le Mans. So TVR are going to pull something out of the shed which will meet and beat Ferrari, Aston, Corvette, Porsche with their long experience and big budgets? Don't hold your breath.
Ozzie Osmond said:
TVR were doing fine last time around until they started fiddling about with engines instead of buying them off the self and sticking them in a characterful sportscar. To sell sportscars you need to impress customers with bits they CAN see, not bits that they CAN'T.
Oh but it's for Le Mans. So TVR are going to pull something out of the shed which will meet and beat Ferrari, Aston, Corvette, Porsche with their long experience and big budgets? Don't hold your breath.
Not a chance in hell of that without ruining the car for road use. To get it competitive for Le Mans, you would have to do all sorts of things that would make it horrendous for normal driving.Oh but it's for Le Mans. So TVR are going to pull something out of the shed which will meet and beat Ferrari, Aston, Corvette, Porsche with their long experience and big budgets? Don't hold your breath.
How many times in the history of previously failed British low volume sports car makers has this potential resurrection scenario been played out now! I just hope it is not another groundhog day story, which they always seem to be.
I am trying to think of one that has ever gone beyond the smoke and mirrors stage? Triumph bikes is the only one I can come up with.
So far all I see as to any concrete evidence is a crate motor being run up on Cosworths old dyno, once.
As to the use of crate engines, my take on that is so what, it is what TVR and most other low volume builders do anyway, even Lotus, for years.
Once I see actual dedicated, fabricated, well made components then I will become a believer.
I know the above wont be welcomed by some of the hopeful (blinkered?) tvr fans but take away the spin and whats left?
I am trying to think of one that has ever gone beyond the smoke and mirrors stage? Triumph bikes is the only one I can come up with.
So far all I see as to any concrete evidence is a crate motor being run up on Cosworths old dyno, once.
As to the use of crate engines, my take on that is so what, it is what TVR and most other low volume builders do anyway, even Lotus, for years.
Once I see actual dedicated, fabricated, well made components then I will become a believer.
I know the above wont be welcomed by some of the hopeful (blinkered?) tvr fans but take away the spin and whats left?
ORD said:
The TVR cannot come anywhere near £100k if it wants to sell. I think that would be insanely ambitious pricing,
I agree that would be ambitious (and not even claimed as a base price), but it's not impossible.- the Sagaris was released in 2005, same time as the 997 - which has better residuals?
- the TVR will be low volume, so supply will be limited.
- TVR has enough of a reputation to generate interest - the level of interest is reasonably high.
Future values and car quality (of driving experience as well as build) are far from know given that we don't even have an accurate picture of what it will look like, but if it's a good car, if it's a good looking car and if enough (well off) people want one, then they could turn them out at £100k. Like the Ferrari attitude with the F50, they just need to price it so they can sell the same number (Ferrari made one less than they thought they could sell) that they intend to make.
ORD said:
Not a chance in hell of that without ruining the car for road use. To get it competitive for Le Mans, you would have to do all sorts of things that would make it horrendous for normal driving.
How similar do you think a 458 and a 458 GT3 (or GT2, or Grand-Am) are? There's a stload of things that they can change (or have to change). Do you actually think a race car has some magic detrimental effect on the road car it was based on?Edited by xRIEx on Monday 2nd November 10:59
ORD said:
Rover does have a bit of a point about the Mustang, though - that is the elephant in the room for pricing. But I've beaten the 'Keep the price down!' drum, before, and I don't think TVR is listening
I'm not actively seeking out your posts, I promise!Thing is, the Mustang is knocking on the door of 1700kg; the TVR is aiming to be about 1200kg (we'll see what happens with that). Even assuming that TVR weren't tweaking the engine and they had an identical 412bhp, the Mustang has about 242bhp/t, the TVR would be 343bhp/t - 100bhp/t better. Let's assume that they get the engine to 450bhp, it pushes it to 375bhp/t. Being 30% lighter will help massively whichever way you look at it, and as we know getting things light is not always cheap.
For comparison, an M4 is 431bhp, just over 1600kg and starts at £57k. A limited production sports car with 400kg less for £20k more is thereabouts, I'd say.
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