RE: 250 orders for new TVR

[ORD]

xRIEx said:

ORD said:

Rover does have a bit of a point about the Mustang, though - that is the elephant in the room for pricing. But I've beaten the 'Keep the price down!' drum, before, and I don't think TVR is listening

I'm not actively seeking out your posts, I promise!

Thing is, the Mustang is knocking on the door of 1700kg; the TVR is aiming to be about 1200kg (we'll see what happens with that). Even assuming that TVR weren't tweaking the engine and they had an identical 412bhp, the Mustang has about 242bhp/t, the TVR would be 343bhp/t - 100bhp/t better. Let's assume that they get the engine to 450bhp, it pushes it to 375bhp/t. Being 30% lighter will help massively whichever way you look at it, and as we know getting things light is not always cheap.

For comparison, an M4 is 431bhp, just over 1600kg and starts at £57k. A limited production sports car with 400kg less for £20k more is thereabouts, I'd say.

1200kg is extremely light. It worries me that TVR thinks they can hit that, but we will see!

I dont doubt that it will be blisteringly fast, but that wont get it very far as regards pricing. A lot of extremely fast cars are as cheap as chips.

As for Le Mans, I was thinking of things like using EPAS and lots of driver tech. I doubt TVR has the money to make the road car very different from the race car. If they want to race in Le Mans, they will take all sorts of decision in relation to the road car to that end, I would have thought.

[TREMAiNE]

ORD said:

1200kg is extremely light. It worries me that TVR thinks they can hit that, but we will see!

I don't see how they couldn't, if it was something they were really keen on sticking to.

The new MX-5 is 1,047KG. A crate Coyote V8 block weighs 200KG. Take away the current engine, stick the Coyote in, use some lightweight materials where the MX-5 doesn't etc... Under 1,200KG...

I know its not as easy as that, but it is definitely achievable!

[Moulder]

First off, I will admit not to having my own car company or even being in the automotive industry, but what made me buy my Cerbera and then my Tamora was looks and performance, there was just nothing out there at the time that looked liked it had been beamed down from another planet and could see off most supercars of its day for half the money.

I can appreciate the engine is integral to performance and if they have sold all the early build slots maybe they don't give a monkeys what I think, but where is the phwoar prototype or pictures of an interior like we have never seen before.

See first paragraph, but I am not excited by a dyno graph or an engine, I want to see something that makes me go fking hell look at that, I've never seen anything like it, where's my cheque book...

Edited by Moulder on Monday 2nd November 12:05

[DonkeyApple]

ORD said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

TVR were doing fine last time around until they started fiddling about with engines instead of buying them off the self and sticking them in a characterful sportscar. To sell sportscars you need to impress customers with bits they CAN see, not bits that they CAN'T.

Oh but it's for Le Mans. So TVR are going to pull something out of the shed which will meet and beat Ferrari, Aston, Corvette, Porsche with their long experience and big budgets? Don't hold your breath.

Not a chance in hell of that without ruining the car for road use. To get it competitive for Le Mans, you would have to do all sorts of things that would make it horrendous for normal driving.

The chaps backing TVR are big Le Mans fans. My assumption was that they all want the fun of running a car at Le Mans and that the added bonus of doing it this way rather than buying a set up from a main manufacturer is that they can use their hobby to help market the car company they own.

Like you, I can't see them beating the night of the mainstream firms but I think we can agree that just turning up and finishing will be very good for marketing the road cars?

[ORD]

TREMAiNE said:

ORD said:

1200kg is extremely light. It worries me that TVR thinks they can hit that, but we will see!

I don't see how they couldn't, if it was something they were really keen on sticking to.

The new MX-5 is 1,047KG. A crate Coyote V8 block weighs 200KG. Take away the current engine, stick the Coyote in, use some lightweight materials where the MX-5 doesn't etc... Under 1,200KG...

I know its not as easy as that, but it is definitely achievable!

I think the MX5 comparison shows exactly why it is unrealistic. The R&D budgets wont bear any kind of comparison. More important, the MX5 doesnt have huge wheels & brakes; nor does it need to cope with a heavy engine and lots of power. I imagine the TVR will need much stronger and therefor heavier components to its rolling chassis and powertrain. For example, I expect the 6MT in the Mazda has a torque limit of about half what the TVR will need, and it must be easier to make a light weak box than a light strong box.

I think 1300kg would be decent. 1250kg would be pretty damn impressive. 1200kg would blow my socks off

[DonkeyApple]

ORD said:

TREMAiNE said:

ORD said:

1200kg is extremely light. It worries me that TVR thinks they can hit that, but we will see!

I don't see how they couldn't, if it was something they were really keen on sticking to.

The new MX-5 is 1,047KG. A crate Coyote V8 block weighs 200KG. Take away the current engine, stick the Coyote in, use some lightweight materials where the MX-5 doesn't etc... Under 1,200KG...

I know its not as easy as that, but it is definitely achievable!

I think the MX5 comparison shows exactly why it is unrealistic. The R&D budgets wont bear any kind of comparison. More important, the MX5 doesnt have huge wheels & brakes; nor does it need to cope with a heavy engine and lots of power. I imagine the TVR will need much stronger and therefor heavier components to its rolling chassis and powertrain. For example, I expect the 6MT in the Mazda has a torque limit of about half what the TVR will need, and it must be easier to make a light weak box than a light strong box.

I think 1300kg would be decent. 1250kg would be pretty damn impressive. 1200kg would blow my socks off

I'm in two minds. As you say, 1200 seems rather hopeful when you look around at things like the lightweight Evora which seems to be as heavy as a Boxster but then I look at my car which is bigger than the other TVRs and that weighs just under 1100. I don't think this Coyote engine is a huge amount heavier than the S6 and while a six speed box will be heavier than my 5 and other parts of the drive train may need to be heavier for the extra power the iStream method may use less steel than my car and the composite wrapper might even be lighter?

As I mentioned before, I am doubtful of the weight claims but I know so little about the iStream process that it could well be that the shell of the new car is much lighter than current Tiv shells/chassis like mine is?

[PAUL500]

KTF said:

RoverP6B said:

TVR need a USP... and I don't see one.

I think this is missing as well. Take the badge off the front and would you still want to buy one?

Take the badge off what!? we need to actually see something to contemplate that scenario

[PAUL500]

TREMAiNE said:

ORD said:

1200kg is extremely light. It worries me that TVR thinks they can hit that, but we will see!

I don't see how they couldn't, if it was something they were really keen on sticking to.

The new MX-5 is 1,047KG. A crate Coyote V8 block weighs 200KG. Take away the current engine, stick the Coyote in, use some lightweight materials where the MX-5 doesn't etc... Under 1,200KG...

I know its not as easy as that, but it is definitely achievable!

and to run that motor you need a tough and no doubt heavy gearbox, propshaft, diff, driveshafts, wheelbearings, uprights, suspension then add in large radiator, manifolds, exhaust, cats etc etc and to get it through type approval some significant crash structure to absorb all that weight.

The f40 struggled to get to 1200kg 25 plus years ago when regulations were not so tight and even then they had to resort to a piece of string to open the door! and no gel coat to hide the carbon weave.

edit....oops Ord beat me to it!

[jamieduff1981]

It isn't hard to make a lighter composite body tub than the last gen TVRs used. Just using pre-preg cloths or even vacuum pumps would be a good start. It's hard to make a heavier layup than just using random weave fibreglass mat and wetting the resin on by hand.

[TREMAiNE]

ORD said:

TREMAiNE said:

ORD said:

1200kg is extremely light. It worries me that TVR thinks they can hit that, but we will see!

I don't see how they couldn't, if it was something they were really keen on sticking to.

The new MX-5 is 1,047KG. A crate Coyote V8 block weighs 200KG. Take away the current engine, stick the Coyote in, use some lightweight materials where the MX-5 doesn't etc... Under 1,200KG...

I know its not as easy as that, but it is definitely achievable!

I think the MX5 comparison shows exactly why it is unrealistic. The R&D budgets wont bear any kind of comparison. More important, the MX5 doesnt have huge wheels & brakes; nor does it need to cope with a heavy engine and lots of power. I imagine the TVR will need much stronger and therefor heavier components to its rolling chassis and powertrain. For example, I expect the 6MT in the Mazda has a torque limit of about half what the TVR will need, and it must be easier to make a light weak box than a light strong box.

I think 1300kg would be decent. 1250kg would be pretty damn impressive. 1200kg would blow my socks off

To be honest, I used the MX-5 comparison just because it was the first car that popped into my head that's under 1,200KG

I see your point, its no easy feat. But also bare in mind, the MX-5 fully loaded is a £23,000 car materials used in it aren't particularly groundbreaking. Assuming the TVR is around £75,000 at tripple the price, you have a good chance of them utilizing more up-market materials to keep weight down. Recycled Carbon-Fibre like the Zenos E10 - much cheaper than normal CF and almost as efficient - perfect for the chassis. Plus more fancy-named lightweight materials here and there and that could negate the extra weight of the heavier gearbox, powertrain etc.

1,300KG is 'easy', losing that extra 100KG will be hard but I'm confident is a doable weight!

[PAUL500]

jamieduff1981 said:

It isn't hard to make a lighter composite body tub than the last gen TVRs used. Just using pre-preg cloths or even vacuum pumps would be a good start. It's hard to make a heavier layup than just using random weave fibreglass mat and wetting the resin on by hand.

Its very hard to to do if you need to get it through type approval though, men in the shed engineering is only for kit cars these days.

[jamieduff1981]

PAUL500 said:

TREMAiNE said:

ORD said:

1200kg is extremely light. It worries me that TVR thinks they can hit that, but we will see!

I don't see how they couldn't, if it was something they were really keen on sticking to.

The new MX-5 is 1,047KG. A crate Coyote V8 block weighs 200KG. Take away the current engine, stick the Coyote in, use some lightweight materials where the MX-5 doesn't etc... Under 1,200KG...

I know its not as easy as that, but it is definitely achievable!

and to run that motor you need a tough and no doubt heavy gearbox, propshaft, diff, driveshafts, wheelbearings, uprights, suspension then add in large radiator, manifolds, exhaust, cats etc etc and to get it through type approval some significant crash structure to absorb all that weight.

The f40 struggled to get to 1200kg 25 plus years ago when regulations were not so tight and even then they had to resort to a piece of string to open the door! and no gel coat to hide the carbon weave.

Why would manifolds, exhausts, catalytic converters, wheel bearings, radiators and uprights be heavier than they used to be on the last TVRs? Propshaft, diff and driveshafts maybe but not much else aft of the gearbox.

Empirical evidence of plenty last-gen TVRs running nonsensical amounts of power from LS conversions are coping just fine save some broken driveshafts - and most of these cars are either racing or spending a lot of time at Santa Pod getting thrashed down the drag strip.

[KTF]

PAUL500 said:

Take the badge off what!? we need to actually see something to contemplate that scenario

Well yes, there is that as well Makes you wonder why they haven't released something like that given that would (probably) generate more interest than an engine on a dyno.

[jamieduff1981]

PAUL500 said:

jamieduff1981 said:

It isn't hard to make a lighter composite body tub than the last gen TVRs used. Just using pre-preg cloths or even vacuum pumps would be a good start. It's hard to make a heavier layup than just using random weave fibreglass mat and wetting the resin on by hand.

Its very hard to to do if you need to get it through type approval though, men in the shed engineering is only for kit cars these days.

Eh? How does composite lay-up technique affect type approval? Is type approval even relevant for low volume manufacturing? It certainly wasn't until recently.

[xRIEx]

PAUL500 said:

The f40 struggled to get to 1200kg 25 plus years ago when regulations were not so tight and even then they had to resort to a piece of string to open the door! and no gel coat to hide the carbon weave.

F40 kerb weight is quoted as 1100kg



Although the interior is sparse, to say the least, the Ultima GTR is quoted at 950kg (although that's going to vary quite a bit with build).

[RoverP6B]

PAUL500 said:

Take the badge off what!? we need to actually see something to contemplate that scenario

Quite! Right now there isn't even a car to put a badge on. Just some very unappetising renderings.

If TVR think they can get this thing below 1400kg, they're very much mistaken.

If TVR think they can sell in the US to buyers who prefer it to a similarly-weighted, similarly heavy Mustang, they're mad.

If TVR think they can sell this thing below £70k, they'll go bankrupt. Again.

This has all the makings of yet another overblown launch followed promptly by grand failure.

[HarryW]

that's that sorted then.....

[joncon]

1180kg...
http://www.morgan-motor.co.uk/aero8/

1380kg....4 seats
http://www.lotuscars.com/lotus-evora-400#specs

it will hopefully fit in around these in weight terms

Edited by joncon on Monday 2nd November 18:33

[Kolbenkopp]

ORD said:

Not a chance in hell of that without ruining the car for road use. To get it competitive for Le Mans, you would have to do all sorts of things that would make it horrendous for normal driving.

Well the chief designer (assuming that that is GM's role) already managed to pull that off 20 years ago [1]. Favorable circumstances and all that -- but still quite an achievement .

What I really like about the whole enterprise is how very ambitious this all sounds. And if they where aiming for numbers / stats that seem more achievable to us armchair experts here -- wouldn't there be a lot of moaning on how "This does not sound better than a main stream car" and "Why buy a TVR instead of a Porsche? Makes no sense!"?

[1] http://www.24h-lemans.com/en/news/the-mclaren-f1-g...

Edit: was 20 years ago & link fixed.

Edited by Kolbenkopp on Monday 2nd November 22:55

[Some Gump]

You still going rover?