RE: Porsche 911 GTS vs Jaguar F-Type
Discussion
ORD said:
The 911 is very light for what it is.
This is something that gets forgotten a lot, it seems. That Porsche have managed to produce a capable 2+2 GT at 1400kg is enormously impressive. Of the competition only the Evora can match it and it makes even a lot of two seaters look very heavy; but it's the Porsche (and the Lotus, but I suppose that's expected and you still seem to pay something of a penalty in terms of build quality) which is the odd one out. As big GTish 2-seaters go, the Jaguar is perhaps a little heavier than average but certainly not exceptionally so. It's a shame for enthusiasts that Porsche don't have Lotus' knack for, and attitude towards, suspension and steering setup because I think the 911 has the underlying capability to be a mind-bendingly good car; it's just let down by Porsche's (economically entirely correct, I'm sure) current focus on mainstream sales volumes at the expense of driver appeal. It's slightly frustrating that, at least to my mind, Porsche have arguably the best platform they've ever had to build drivers' cars on and are building the worst drivers cars they ever have.
I guess we just have to accept that the days of the mainstream manufacturer catering for the driving enthusiast are probably in the past.
Edited by kambites on Friday 28th August 13:53
ORD said:
NJC0607 said:
JAG... for the way it looks (gorgeous) and oooohhh THAT noise !. if you want the ultimate drivers car you would save up for a GT3 I guess... but for every day pleasure - JAG F-Type. Porsche is just to Cliché.
I am sorry to single you out, mate, but this is typical PH. You say that the Jag is the "ultimate driver's car" and mark the 911 in that regard because it is "cliche". What on Earth has being popular got to do with whether or not a car is a good driver's car? If every other car was a 997 GT3 4.0 RS or a Lotus or a 458 S, it would still be an awesome driver's car.
A lot of opinions on here seem to have a lotto do with image and the perceptions of strangers and not much to do with driving cars for the drive and not to look cool or stand out.
Jag for me. I have driven plenty of Porsche (964, 930 Turbo, 968, 993, 996, 997, Boxster S, etc.) and have enjoyed them all. In my opinion the beauty of the earlier cars lies in their 'feel'; the poise, feedback, and ability to shrink around you in order for you to concentrate on the drive. The newer the Porsche, the more of this has been lost.
I like a car which I can provoke at any time; one which allows me to moderately hoon and enjoy a b road at a sensible speed with all the sensations which make driving such a joy. The modern Porsche has done its best to remove this in order to improve on the spec sheet, the pub brag, the top trumps figures. I'll admit that it may simply be that I'm just not a good enough driver to be able to reach the enjoyable limits of a 991; and it may be for this reason I found my test drive in an F-Type a revelation. It's a modern car which recalls all of these raw sensations of driving. It may be heavy, it may be wide, it may look a little odd and sound a little caddish; but by god, when you're in the bloody thing all of that is forgiven and forgotten. Drive one properly, and then report back.
ORD said:
The 911 is very light for what it is. It manages to have two more seats and still be about 250kg lighter than the Jag.
The V6 S weighed by Autocar came in at 1,755kg. The F-Type is a proper lardo. Heavier than a bloody 3 Series Touring!
Put an aftermarket exhaust on a Cayman and it would make all the silly farts and pops you want, as well as having a genuine induction roar (which a forced induction engine has to fake).
I think this is all true, I didn't know about the test weight of the F-Type but the V6 S Spider I drove felt quite heavy. But it is still a good car even if I wouldn't buy it, at least not a brand new one. The V6 S weighed by Autocar came in at 1,755kg. The F-Type is a proper lardo. Heavier than a bloody 3 Series Touring!
Put an aftermarket exhaust on a Cayman and it would make all the silly farts and pops you want, as well as having a genuine induction roar (which a forced induction engine has to fake).
The Jag looks like better value on the basis of this article. However, as somebody else pointed out it would be more meaningful to compare the V6 F-type with a Cayman. Time will tell, I know a few Cayman and Boxster owners and they tend to be happy chappies. I've not met anybody with an F-type yet. If I was spending my own money on a new car of this type in this price range I can't help thinking that the Porsche would pretty much be the default choice.
When it comes to used, it seems like Jags can be relative bargains. Although they have the odd glitch/gremlin, Jags are often pleasingly inexpensive to fix. Everything Porsche seems to cost big $ if it f@@ks up. Stateside, used Porsches seemed to depreciate fast, and enjoyed a reputation for generally being thrashed by their first owners. Jags depreciated but seemed less likely to have been abused, and thus appeared smarter buys.
When it comes to used, it seems like Jags can be relative bargains. Although they have the odd glitch/gremlin, Jags are often pleasingly inexpensive to fix. Everything Porsche seems to cost big $ if it f@@ks up. Stateside, used Porsches seemed to depreciate fast, and enjoyed a reputation for generally being thrashed by their first owners. Jags depreciated but seemed less likely to have been abused, and thus appeared smarter buys.
It seems to me that cars in this bracket sell on emotional appeal - how they look, how they feel, how they sound. Thus nitty gritty spec and price comparisons will only get you so far (including plenty of click bait for PH). Ian Callum is on record saying his aim was to put a smile on your face. If it does not do that, then the F-Type is not for you. End of story. There were also some practical considerations he needed to cater for. People, especially potential customers in the USA are getting bigger and wider - so Jaguar designed a wide car.
I was interested enough in the F-Type to spend an afternoon (organised by Jaguar) at Millbrook driving the V8 and the V6 autos in coupe and convertible versions - the manual and AWD were not then announced. My conclusions: the V8 offered too much power for my limited abilities; the V6 was very nice but I would have preferred it with AWD. I did not find the ZF box "slushy" as ORD has suggested above. It is also fitted to the Range Rover Sport that I bought instead of the F-Type; it is a very fine transmission.
I have no doubt that Porsche make very fine cars - I once had the interesting experience of being driven at speed around the Weissach track many years ago in various models of the day (including a Le Mans car)so I am aware of their performance credentials - but they do not appeal to me as cars.
I was interested enough in the F-Type to spend an afternoon (organised by Jaguar) at Millbrook driving the V8 and the V6 autos in coupe and convertible versions - the manual and AWD were not then announced. My conclusions: the V8 offered too much power for my limited abilities; the V6 was very nice but I would have preferred it with AWD. I did not find the ZF box "slushy" as ORD has suggested above. It is also fitted to the Range Rover Sport that I bought instead of the F-Type; it is a very fine transmission.
I have no doubt that Porsche make very fine cars - I once had the interesting experience of being driven at speed around the Weissach track many years ago in various models of the day (including a Le Mans car)so I am aware of their performance credentials - but they do not appeal to me as cars.
ORD said:
neil1jnr said:
BUT, this is about the F-Type vs 911, not the Cayman which you brought into the equation. So on the basis of what figures Phead's have given, the Jag is only 142KG heavier than the Porsche, that's less than have than the 300KG you are spouting. So is the 911 grossly overweight?
My view on this is that yes, the 911 is the 'better' car, but I would as sure hope so given the price difference here, however, V8S or 911 or V6 F-Type vs Cayman, I'd choose the Jag everytime just becuase of the sound it makes, particularly the V6.
The only car I've driven out of the ones mentioned is the Cayman in 'S' trim. Yes it was good, very good, but I would never buy one. It doesn't excite me and the gear ratios are just ridiculous.
The 911 is very light for what it is. It manages to have two more seats and still be about 250kg lighter than the Jag.My view on this is that yes, the 911 is the 'better' car, but I would as sure hope so given the price difference here, however, V8S or 911 or V6 F-Type vs Cayman, I'd choose the Jag everytime just becuase of the sound it makes, particularly the V6.
The only car I've driven out of the ones mentioned is the Cayman in 'S' trim. Yes it was good, very good, but I would never buy one. It doesn't excite me and the gear ratios are just ridiculous.
The V6 S weighed by Autocar came in at 1,755kg. The F-Type is a proper lardo. Heavier than a bloody 3 Series Touring!
Put an aftermarket exhaust on a Cayman and it would make all the silly farts and pops you want, as well as having a genuine induction roar (which a forced induction engine has to fake).
The Cayman makes a good throaty roar but that note on the V6 Jag for me is something else (I hate the artificial pops and bangs too).
neil1jnr said:
Fair point, but I don't buy into lighter is always better in some cases. The GTR and the older Skylines for example were apparently engineered to be heavier (I recall there was an interview with the GTR creator on here regarding this?) for traction and grip advantages, more weight per square inch pushing the car down to the road via the tyres and all that. Saying that though, I usually prefer a lighter car myself but I wouldn't discount a car becuase of its high comparative mass.
The Cayman makes a good throaty roar but that note on the V6 Jag for me is something else (I hate the artificial pops and bangs too).
The engineer was lying, I am afraid. That's errant nonsense. If they could have made it lighter, they would have.The Cayman makes a good throaty roar but that note on the V6 Jag for me is something else (I hate the artificial pops and bangs too).
ORD said:
The engineer was lying, I am afraid. That's errant nonsense. If they could have made it lighter, they would have.
It they could made it lighter without pushing the price up, they would have. These things are always a compromise. You can always make a car lighter if you're willing to throw money at it.
kambites said:
This is something that gets forgotten a lot, it seems. That Porsche have managed to produce a capable 2+2 GT at 1400kg is enormously impressive. Of the competition only the Evora can match it and it makes even a lot of two seaters look very heavy; but it's the Porsche (and the Lotus, but I suppose that's expected and you still seem to pay something of a penalty in terms of build quality) which is the odd one out. As big GTish 2-seaters go, the Jaguar is perhaps a little heavier than average but certainly not exceptionally so. It's a shame for enthusiasts that Porsche don't have Lotus' knack for, and attitude towards, suspension and steering setup because I think the 911 has the underlying capability to be a mind-bendingly good car; it's just let down by Porsche's (economically entirely correct, I'm sure) current focus on mainstream sales volumes at the expense of driver appeal. It's slightly frustrating that, at least to my mind, Porsche have arguably the best platform they've ever had to build drivers' cars on and are building the worst drivers cars they ever have.
I guess we just have to accept that the days of the mainstream manufacturer catering for the driving enthusiast are probably in the past.
Edited by kambites on Friday 28th August 13:53
ORD said:
I agree with all of that. The 997 feels half-finished and bit loose after driving a 991. It's also heavier (just about noticeably). But the 991 cossets in a way that a sports/GT really shouldnt. A skunkworks 991 could be sublime. I also expect that the GT4 is brilliant. Even the 981 Boxster that I had for a couple of weeks was excellent in many ways.
No car with that steering rack is ever going to be "brilliant" to drive. I'm not even sure it could be acceptable, for me. Cotic said:
kambites said:
It they could made it lighter without pushing the price up, they would have.
These things are always a compromise. You can always make a car lighter if you're willing to throw money at it.
'Light, durable, cheap - Pick any two out of three'These things are always a compromise. You can always make a car lighter if you're willing to throw money at it.
My Cerbera is the heaviest feeling car I've got in every way bar turn-in. The controls are heavy, the forces it imparts are large. Everything feels big and thuggish. Early application of power after apexing a corner will result in a fairly slow yaw towards oversteer - everything feels like large weights and inertias are being overcome by massive grip and huge power. It oversteers about as lethargically as my pickup truck does (both in dry - it's a bit twitchier in the wet). It's the lightest car I currently have on the road, only has 235mm/255mm section tyres F/R respectively and has a fairly modest <400bhp making it happen. It even feels heavy to push around the garage if I want to move it a few feet without bothering to start it.
The almost 2 tonne XFR-S has a turn-in almost as sharp, lighter steering (I'd prefer more weight but I like it well enough for a saloon car), the brakes are too light (but that seems to be a modern car thing) and can develop large yaw rates very quickly, particularly in the wet.
Point is, sensation of weight in a car is just that, a sensation. Personally I didn't think the F-Type 'felt' heavy. Or maybe I just have no idea what I'm doing. Touch wood I haven't reversed the Cerbera in to a hedge yet so I'd like to think I wasn't a complete spiv - but you never know
kambites said:
ORD said:
I agree with all of that. The 997 feels half-finished and bit loose after driving a 991. It's also heavier (just about noticeably). But the 991 cossets in a way that a sports/GT really shouldnt. A skunkworks 991 could be sublime. I also expect that the GT4 is brilliant. Even the 981 Boxster that I had for a couple of weeks was excellent in many ways.
No car with that steering rack is ever going to be "brilliant" to drive. I'm not even sure it could be acceptable, for me. To be brutally honest, the steering feel in the 987/997 was a only a 7/10 (and perhaps slightly better in the Cayman than the 911). Making it worse was stupid. Perhaps 7/10 is harsh given that I would then have to give most cars between 0/10 and 5/10!
ORD said:
A fair point, but the reviews all suggest that Porsche has now sorted out the EPAS.
I wasn't thinking of the lack of feel from the EPAS so much as the awful variable ratio introduced in the 997. When I was hunting for a sports car that was the one thing with the 997 and 987 that made me absolutely decide "I could never buy this". Edited by kambites on Friday 28th August 14:36
kambites said:
I wasn't thinking of the lack of feel from the EPAS so much as the awful variable ratio introduced in the 997. When I was hunting for a sports car that was the one thing with the 997 and 987 that made me absolutely decide "I could never buy this".
Oh. I wouldn't worry about that. You stop noticing it at all after a few weeks. I only ever notice after spending a lot of time in a car that doesn't have it. Edited by kambites on Friday 28th August 14:36
ORD said:
Oh. I wouldn't worry about that. You stop noticing it at all after a few weeks. I only ever notice after spending a lot of time in a car that doesn't have it.
You can learn to drive around almost any dynamic failing of a car, that doesn't mean I want to when there are other cars that don't have the failing. The 997 genuinely has one of the worst steering systems I've ever experienced in a "sports car"; I might or might not get used to it but I wouldn't even want to put myself through the time to try. It's odd really, because I didn't have an issue with the variable ratio system in the SLK at all and very few other people even seem to notice it. I'd love to try driving a 991 with a 996's steering rack, if that were possible.
Edited by kambites on Friday 28th August 15:13
kambites said:
You can learn to drive around almost any dynamic failing of a car, that doesn't mean I want to when there are other cars that don't have the failing.
It's not a dynamic characteristic at all. It's an interface characteristic like a long brake pedal. It's only a problem if (or while) it jars and so interferes with the sensation of control. It does strike me as weird when I haven't driven the car for a while but then my brain just starts to apply a correction factor and I don't even notice it anymore. Still crap that Porsche did it, but it disappears (subjectively) after a short time.I expect it is thought to be necessary to make the car fast on the 'Ring and yet easy to steer around town.
ORD said:
It's not a dynamic characteristic at all. It's an interface characteristic like a long brake pedal.
Fair point, but it's still enough that I'll never buy a car with that system however good the rest of it is. I genuinely thought the first 987 I drove had something broken in the front suspension/tracking. And yes, I'm sure that's why Porsche installed it but I don't buy a sports car wanting it to be easy to park or quick around the ring. Compromising how a sports car drives on a B-road to make it easier to park and faster round the ring rather sums up modern Porsches and modern "sports cars" in general, unfortunately.
Edited by kambites on Friday 28th August 15:20
kambites said:
Fair point, but it's still enough that I'll never buy a car with that system however good the rest of it is. I genuinely thought the first 987 I drove had something broken in the front suspension/tracking.
And yes, I'm sure that's why Porsche installed it but I don't buy a sports car wanting it to be easy to park or quick around the ring.
I am surprised more people don't complain about it, to be honest. As I say, it doesn't bother me. But I would certainly flag it up in a review and say it's bloody weird and a bit silly. For some reason, it seems more pronounced in the 987 which I know is purely subjective! And yes, I'm sure that's why Porsche installed it but I don't buy a sports car wanting it to be easy to park or quick around the ring.
I don't think I have driven a recent car with better steering, though. Elise, sure, but that's old school now!
ORD said:
I don't think I have driven a recent car with better steering, though. Elise, sure, but that's old school now!
The mk3 MR2's steering is better. To my mind so are the SLK, Z4M and MX5... even the E90 M3 is only different rather than worse and that's a bloody great barge of a thing with the engine over the front axle. I haven't actually driven one but from what I've read I suspect the Evora is better than any of them. Anyway this is getting a bit off topic. Does the F-Type have a variable ratio system or is it linear?
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