RE: Porsche 911 GTS vs Jaguar F-Type
Discussion
Housey said:
So the press are idiots and biased unless they agree with you? Christ you know how to ruin your own arguments better than many I have seen on here over the years don't you.
Far from it, I just know to take everything I read with a pinch of salt. As my late father, a highly-regarded research scientist, and who in wartime trained tank crews (including radio operators for SOE), used to say - "believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see, and even then prepare to have been deceived". The standard of journalism today, even in the specialist motoring press, is almost uniformly execrable: poor grammar, misspellings and typographical errors which any sub-editor worth their salt should have picked up on and corrected, and a reprehensible trend of using journalese/yuk speak which the general public will not understand. I am disinclined to trust the opinion of those who cannot string together two sentences in their mother tongue without committing several errors of spelling, grammar and good phrasing.nickfrog said:
People buying a new Porsche are simply wrong. That Rover P6 is a far better bet. I reckon Porsche should look into making them actually, exactly how they were all those years ago. I might give them a call, they are still open for a few minutes.
You know damn well that's not what I'm saying. It was a lovely car in its time and could teach modern engineers a thing or two about ride/handling balance and steering feel from a variable-ratio setup, but I'm not going to compare chalk and cheese. It's more to the point to compare the 911 to its rivals here and now - R8, GT-R, F-type, Corvette etc. The 911's reliability record is poor and it's simply nothing like as entertaining as the Jag or Vette.JockySteer said:
Soulless 
. Love a good joke. The Mezger was and is sensational. The new flat 6 is just as incredible.. go and listen to the last 500rpm on the 991 GT3 again and come back.
I've heard it in person. Spotted "911 GB" (a white 991 GT3 press car) in my local Tesco car park and hung around to hear it being driven off, followed it to the motorway slip and heard it being wrung out to the redline. I thought it sounded utterly anodyne compared to the old 997 GT3's Mezger unit. Better than the droning Ferrari 458, but not by much.. Love a good joke. The Mezger was and is sensational. The new flat 6 is just as incredible.. go and listen to the last 500rpm on the 991 GT3 again and come back.JockySteer said:
I'm dying to see it being lambasted by Evo - please share the link?
Big group test in the magazine a few years back, cover headline "911 BEATEN", think the R8 and GT-R featured in it, against the new 991. http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/279136/latest_is...http://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/911/14127/porsche-911...
http://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/911/16476/911-killers...
I seem to have forgotten what this thread was originally about and have started defending the GT3, completely forgetting you could be speaking about other 911's. So my bad on that part.
But your comment on the noise (albeit subjective) I simply can't understand. People like different noises I guess, but good god the 991 GT3 is musical.
But your comment on the noise (albeit subjective) I simply can't understand. People like different noises I guess, but good god the 991 GT3 is musical.
RoverP6B said:
Housey said:
So the press are idiots and biased unless they agree with you? Christ you know how to ruin your own arguments better than many I have seen on here over the years don't you.
Far from it, I just know to take everything I read with a pinch of salt. As my late father, a highly-regarded research scientist, and who in wartime trained tank crews (including radio operators for SOE), used to say - "believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see, and even then prepare to have been deceived". The standard of journalism today, even in the specialist motoring press, is almost uniformly execrable: poor grammar, misspellings and typographical errors which any sub-editor worth their salt should have picked up on and corrected, and a reprehensible trend of using journalese/yuk speak which the general public will not understand. I am disinclined to trust the opinion of those who cannot string together two sentences in their mother tongue without committing several errors of spelling, grammar and good phrasing.nickfrog said:
People buying a new Porsche are simply wrong. That Rover P6 is a far better bet. I reckon Porsche should look into making them actually, exactly how they were all those years ago. I might give them a call, they are still open for a few minutes.
You know damn well that's not what I'm saying. It was a lovely car in its time and could teach modern engineers a thing or two about ride/handling balance and steering feel from a variable-ratio setup, but I'm not going to compare chalk and cheese. It's more to the point to compare the 911 to its rivals here and now - R8, GT-R, F-type, Corvette etc. The 911's reliability record is poor and it's simply nothing like as entertaining as the Jag or Vette.JockySteer said:
Soulless . Love a good joke. The Mezger was and is sensational. The new flat 6 is just as incredible.. go and listen to the last 500rpm on the 991 GT3 again and come back.
I've heard it in person. Spotted "911 GB" (a white 991 GT3 press car) in my local Tesco car park and hung around to hear it being driven off, followed it to the motorway slip and heard it being wrung out to the redline. I thought it sounded utterly anodyne compared to the old 997 GT3's Mezger unit. Better than the droning Ferrari 458, but not by much.. Love a good joke. The Mezger was and is sensational. The new flat 6 is just as incredible.. go and listen to the last 500rpm on the 991 GT3 again and come back.JockySteer said:
I'm dying to see it being lambasted by Evo - please share the link?
Big group test in the magazine a few years back, cover headline "911 BEATEN", think the R8 and GT-R featured in it, against the new 991. http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/279136/latest_is...http://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/911/14127/porsche-911...
http://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/911/16476/911-killers...
First off - I'm baised as I've bought an F-Type (380hp V6S Auto), so I'm a fan. For me, modern cars are all so fast and capable but stuck to moon-surface roads(in the UK at least) and an almost constant degree of congestion and traffic. As such, 0-60, ring times, etc...are all just pub bragging nonsense.
When I started looking for my latest steed, I looked for a car that made me feel good. Tried a barely used 911, Cayman, Cayman GTS, M3 & M4, and C63 AMG. All brilliant in their own right. All hugely fast and capable. And each one left me a bit cold. (sorry BMW, you were last on the list by a mile, despite a 17-yr unbroken BMW ownership history - different subject but you've lost your way).
The Jag however, just feels right. It's dramatic to look at, makes an amazing noise, and has just enough little touches that it's a dream to own. It has that undefinable thing called character. No doubt we can throw out figures that point to the Porker being 'better', but it lacks fun and soul. You can enjoy the Jag at any speed, the Porsche only entertains at 10/10ths.
When I started looking for my latest steed, I looked for a car that made me feel good. Tried a barely used 911, Cayman, Cayman GTS, M3 & M4, and C63 AMG. All brilliant in their own right. All hugely fast and capable. And each one left me a bit cold. (sorry BMW, you were last on the list by a mile, despite a 17-yr unbroken BMW ownership history - different subject but you've lost your way).
The Jag however, just feels right. It's dramatic to look at, makes an amazing noise, and has just enough little touches that it's a dream to own. It has that undefinable thing called character. No doubt we can throw out figures that point to the Porker being 'better', but it lacks fun and soul. You can enjoy the Jag at any speed, the Porsche only entertains at 10/10ths.
kbee540 said:
First off - I'm baised as I've bought an F-Type (380hp V6S Auto), so I'm a fan. For me, modern cars are all so fast and capable but stuck to moon-surface roads(in the UK at least) and an almost constant degree of congestion and traffic. As such, 0-60, ring times, etc...are all just pub bragging nonsense.
When I started looking for my latest steed, I looked for a car that made me feel good. Tried a barely used 911, Cayman, Cayman GTS, M3 & M4, and C63 AMG. All brilliant in their own right. All hugely fast and capable. And each one left me a bit cold. (sorry BMW, you were last on the list by a mile, despite a 17-yr unbroken BMW ownership history - different subject but you've lost your way).
The Jag however, just feels right. It's dramatic to look at, makes an amazing noise, and has just enough little touches that it's a dream to own. It has that undefinable thing called character. No doubt we can throw out figures that point to the Porker being 'better', but it lacks fun and soul. You can enjoy the Jag at any speed, the Porsche only entertains at 10/10ths.
Pretty much agree with you apart from the 911 only being entertaining at 10/10s there is something entertaining to me to be in a car so capable without sWhen I started looking for my latest steed, I looked for a car that made me feel good. Tried a barely used 911, Cayman, Cayman GTS, M3 & M4, and C63 AMG. All brilliant in their own right. All hugely fast and capable. And each one left me a bit cold. (sorry BMW, you were last on the list by a mile, despite a 17-yr unbroken BMW ownership history - different subject but you've lost your way).
The Jag however, just feels right. It's dramatic to look at, makes an amazing noise, and has just enough little touches that it's a dream to own. It has that undefinable thing called character. No doubt we can throw out figures that point to the Porker being 'better', but it lacks fun and soul. You can enjoy the Jag at any speed, the Porsche only entertains at 10/10ths.
ttingyour self it will oversteer into the hedge if I move my foot 1mm at the wrong time. Which seems to be its biggest critics is that it's too good. I've never subscribed to that I'm sure I'd love a 12c too'Soul' is just how people pretend that there is some objective content to their preference. You prefer the Jag. Call it soul if you want, but it's a term without any descriptive content.
Alfas have relied on 'soul' for decades because they are st. The Jaguar doesn't need 'soul' because it's actually a good car 
Alfas have relied on 'soul' for decades because they are s
t. The Jaguar doesn't need 'soul' because it's actually a good car This thread is an entertaining read. I have one question and one observation.
The question: does ORD sell Porsche`s to earn his living? if not he should do so.
The observation: this will be sacrilege on PH, but I expect I would get as much fun, on UK B roads, out of a 4 cyl. F-Type as I would out of a V6 or V8, and probably more. I suspect it would possess more than enough power and torque for that in the current state of Ingenium tune - even more so once JLR`s SVO had got to work on it.
The question: does ORD sell Porsche`s to earn his living? if not he should do so.
The observation: this will be sacrilege on PH, but I expect I would get as much fun, on UK B roads, out of a 4 cyl. F-Type as I would out of a V6 or V8, and probably more. I suspect it would possess more than enough power and torque for that in the current state of Ingenium tune - even more so once JLR`s SVO had got to work on it.
Can you lot stop praising the F-Type please. At the current rate everyone will want one and keep residuals high, which means it will take even bloody longer for me to get my mits on one.
As for the 911, I also like them - a lot, I was deeply impressed when I drove a 997 C2S. It was absolutely fantastic and sounded wonderful.
As a car nut, I place as much emphasis on opening the garage door and seeing a thing of beauty in the garage as wringing the last 1% (OK, last 20%) of performance from it.
So my vote would go to the F-Type unless there was an Aston Vantage close by, and even then it would make me wonder if I should have bought the other.
HTH.
As for the 911, I also like them - a lot, I was deeply impressed when I drove a 997 C2S. It was absolutely fantastic and sounded wonderful.
As a car nut, I place as much emphasis on opening the garage door and seeing a thing of beauty in the garage as wringing the last 1% (OK, last 20%) of performance from it.
So my vote would go to the F-Type unless there was an Aston Vantage close by, and even then it would make me wonder if I should have bought the other.
HTH.
This is currently parked on my drive and I have the keys.
It is the slowest, heaviest 991 you can buy, with the unloved 7 speed manual.
It is, quite frankly, excellent.
Sports exhaust, free revving flat six, excellent ride/body control. Looks like a million dollars. Can fit me and 3 gangly teenagers in it (daughter, son and his girlfriend before the fnar fnar jokes), the roof mechanism is a work of theatre.
Despite clinical excellence it is a very desirable package indeed.
It is the slowest, heaviest 991 you can buy, with the unloved 7 speed manual.
It is, quite frankly, excellent.
Sports exhaust, free revving flat six, excellent ride/body control. Looks like a million dollars. Can fit me and 3 gangly teenagers in it (daughter, son and his girlfriend before the fnar fnar jokes), the roof mechanism is a work of theatre.
Despite clinical excellence it is a very desirable package indeed.
I agree on the Targa. It's a really lovely GT. All cooking 991s are more GT than sports car, and the Targa is just a bit further that way along the spectrum. Really lovely looking car in the metal, too. Photos don't do it justice.
I like 911s. Other people like Jags and Astons. Vive la difference! (I'm right and they're wrong )
I like 911s. Other people like Jags and Astons. Vive la difference! (I'm right and they're wrong
)like the idea of the targa, looks great. open air is always a good option to have.
Can i raise i geeky issue with it…. I read (i think) that the targa loop is not structural and that the Targa is a convertible underneath. I guess a "structural Targa" would effectively be an additional model and so too costly. In an ideal world they would have utilised the loop to not add so much weight. I haven't driven it, i just like less weight wherever possible.
Can i raise i geeky issue with it…. I read (i think) that the targa loop is not structural and that the Targa is a convertible underneath. I guess a "structural Targa" would effectively be an additional model and so too costly. In an ideal world they would have utilised the loop to not add so much weight. I haven't driven it, i just like less weight wherever possible.
rob.kellock said:
This is currently parked on my drive and I have the keys.
It is the slowest, heaviest 991 you can buy, with the unloved 7 speed manual.
It is, quite frankly, excellent.
Sports exhaust, free revving flat six, excellent ride/body control. Looks like a million dollars. Can fit me and 3 gangly teenagers in it (daughter, son and his girlfriend before the fnar fnar jokes), the roof mechanism is a work of theatre.
Despite clinical excellence it is a very desirable package indeed.
Don't worry Rover will be along shortly to tell you you've made a bad purchase according to whatever magazine he's read / been told about in the pub / or read on here , delete where appropriate .It is the slowest, heaviest 991 you can buy, with the unloved 7 speed manual.
It is, quite frankly, excellent.
Sports exhaust, free revving flat six, excellent ride/body control. Looks like a million dollars. Can fit me and 3 gangly teenagers in it (daughter, son and his girlfriend before the fnar fnar jokes), the roof mechanism is a work of theatre.
Despite clinical excellence it is a very desirable package indeed.
ORD said:
'Soul' is just how people pretend that there is some objective content to their preference. You prefer the Jag. Call it soul if you want, but it's a term without any descriptive content.
Alfas have relied on 'soul' for decades because they are st. The Jaguar doesn't need 'soul' because it's actually a good car
Alfas aren't sAlfas have relied on 'soul' for decades because they are s
t. The Jaguar doesn't need 'soul' because it's actually a good car t, never have been, not even the woeful Arna, which at least had a proper Alfa H4 engine rather than the Datsun I4. Whatever build quality issues there have been, and the diversion into FWD for even the big stuff, the designs were always good. Soul is a useful catch-all for all the stuff that makes great cars (including older 911s) so rewarding: sound, steering feel, throttle response, handling, ride quality, interior design, and of course external styling.Buster73 said:
Don't worry Rover will be along shortly to tell you you've made a bad purchase according to whatever magazine he's read / been told about in the pub / or read on here , delete where appropriate .
Not at all. I quite like the Targa, the way the roof operates is a work of art, and at least he's bought the manual rather than bowing to residual-value pressure and speccing the PDK. If he finds it ticks the boxes both in practicality and enjoyment, great.
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