Bangernomics verses New Cars

[Crusoe]

Bit over priced in my opinion and probably wait till the first snow on the ground if I was buying one but as an example quite a nice 10 year old approved used bmw. Probably haggle £1k off and get a two year approved used warranty.
http://usedcars.bmw.co.uk/ALPINA/3.4-S-Z4/Leiceste...

Edited by Crusoe on Wednesday 2nd September 11:16

[Welshbeef]

Crusoe said:

quite a nice 10 year old approved used bmw for example. Probably haggle £1k off and get a two year approved used warranty.
http://usedcars.bmw.co.uk/ALPINA/3.4-S-Z4/Leiceste...

Ok so there is 1 UK wide.

Now for the millions of car buyers what do they do to access 6-8 year old used approved?

[rongagin]

TheAngryDog said:

I'm sure that means something, I don't know what though.. Could be an insult? Who knows!

It is actually very relevant to this thread, certainly not an insult

http://www.weibull.com/hotwire/issue21/hottopics21... is one link but loads more.

Basically new items fail at a higher overall rate then become more reliable (overall) then go into higher failure rate (overall) as they reach old age. Think people, cars, whatever

[Crusoe]

I could post them up all day, lots of them out there if you know what you want and wait for the right car to come up at the right price. Always the alternative of aftermarket warranty either with a big firm or with a specialist like Litchfield or Hartech for example. Buy a good car with good backup and there shouldn't be any big bills to worry about and then sell before the running costs get too high if you want to minimize exposure to depreciation and service costs.

[Crumpet]

Welshbeef said:

Which brand sells approved used 6-8 years old? Try 0-4 at best specifically with BMW.

Well, I recently looked at a BMW approved used 3 series that was 7 years old. And Land Rover certainly do them up to 5 years old, possibly 6. It's fairly common!

[Crusoe]

Welshbeef said:

Ok so there is 1 UK wide.

Now for the millions of car buyers what do they do to access 6-8 year old used approved?

Works for me but I'm sure there are plenty of people further up the chain spending more on a lease deal for a second hand 2-4 year old car that think it is great value and still have a fixed price payment and dealer warranty for less than the new car deals. There also needs to be other people buying nice new manual larger engined cars to keep them drip feeding down to the level I'm buying so it's good to hear a few people specifying manuals on new M4 or F coupes that I might be interested in later on. Increased number on lease means there is more on the second hand market and lower prices for cars that might not have sold well without the dealer lease incentives (large petrol v8 Mercedes for example).

[emicen]

Welshbeef said:

Crusoe said:

quite a nice 10 year old approved used bmw for example. Probably haggle £1k off and get a two year approved used warranty.
http://usedcars.bmw.co.uk/ALPINA/3.4-S-Z4/Leiceste...

Ok so there is 1 UK wide.

Now for the millions of car buyers what do they do to access 6-8 year old used approved?

There are 45 5-10 year old 3 series in the BMWAUC listings. There are also over 45 5-9 year old 5 series in the BMWAUC listings.

How about, take a break from being your usualself, acknowledge you were wrong, quit while you're behind? BMW approved used is not "0-4 at best specifically with BMW"

Welshbeef said:

Which brand sells approved used 6-8 years old? Try 0-4 at best specifically with BMW.

If the buyer looks for such a car they are out there.

[Crusoe]

For BMW they can't offer their finance on cars that will be over ten years old by the end of the finance period so they obviously don't take as many older cars that they can't make extra margin on selling finance deals. Does mean that you might have more room to haggle though and they tend to take only the nicer cars that they are confident won't need a lot of work to take them up to approved specification and won't lose a lot of money if they are sat for sale for a few months.

Not just bmws, something like an approved used Toyota GT86 for £14k looks like a good place to buy at the moment for a couple of years of low cost cheap motoring, lots of people waiting to snap them up when they get nearer £10-12k so should hold up in value quite well and still has manufactures warranty for several years. Few grand in depreciation and a mot and service is probably all it would need in two years with reasonable tax and fuel costs. Pessimistic £4k total cost over two years would still only be £167 a month for a nearly new fun rwd sports car.

Edited by Crusoe on Wednesday 2nd September 12:59

[TheAngryDog]

TVRJAS said:

So you sleep better... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve

I sleep just fine

[Welshbeef]

emicen said:

If the buyer looks for such a car they are out there.

Ok so there are 45 BMWs AUC 5-10 years old. Let me guess nearly all of those are 4/5 years old with hardly any much older.


But the point stands that your simply looking private or non main dealer traders - a glance at Autotrader indicates there are about 3,000 3 series for sale 5-10years old so 1.5% of all those for sale are AUC great that means nearly everyone wanting an older 3 series will not be getting AUC.

[Crusoe]

I'm happy to pay the premium for the approved used benefits, most are happy to save money buying it cheaper and put some money aside for repairs if needed. Don't think there is anything stopping you having any bmw under 60k miles with full bmw service history brought under their extended warranty if you want to pay for the inspection and the cover. Know Porsche offer something similar as well if you want to have the car inspected.

[RB Will]

RYH64E said:

Bill said:

Isn't that what the AA's all singing & dancing European cover is for?

That might get you home, wouldn't do much to enhance the holiday experience though.

Yeah worked really well for me, sat on the side of a motorway for 5 hours only to be flat towed to the nearest dealer who wouldnt work on the car as it was a model not sold in their market so had nobody trained to fix it. another 3 hours waiting there (well outside of it in the dark as they only got me there at 5pm) for the AA to organise a flat bed to bring me back to Calais (I was on my way home at the time anyway) more faffing and pass the parcel later I finally got home in about 22 hours for what should have been a 6 hour trip.

SidewaysSi said:

A new modern lease car would bore the st out of me.

Each to their own but I think this is a view that a lot of people have through rose tinted specs as such.

They either dont compare like with like, dont realise how good the the modern equivalent is or assume that every car on lease is a hyundai or poverty spec BM.

I have run older cars on the cheap and while you get the satisfaction of not spending much the ongoing maintenance,of admittedly small things (I like my cars to be tidy) meant regular DIY or visits to my tame mechanic were getting a bit annoying.
middle aged cars I have had 2004-6 have been pleasant but just reaching the point of costing big money on items that can only last so long no matter how you drive.

Every one of these extra costs takes a bit of the sheen off a car for me.

These have all been slightly oddball cars with a bit of character so the sort of stuff that PHers say is so much better to be driving than anything modern. they all had certain driving characteristics that I just put up with as thats how those cars are. I didnt realise until I had my latest car that essentially I had just been forgiving poor road manners

As my daily at the moment I lease a 2015 Skoda Octavia VRS. It is by far the best daily car I have ever had.
The last 2 used cars I have had would have been about £32K and £43K new, the Skoda was £19k. Its better built, better equipped, at least as quick if not faster, better chassis, not boring, half the mileage I have on it at the moment has been from going out and driving for pleasure while the weekend car is being sorted, cheaper to run, gives me zero worries etc Its amazing how far cars have come in the last 10 years.

In short if done right bangernomics is nearly always going to be the cheaper alternative.

but I do encourage a lot of the bangernomics supporters to try spending a bit of time in a modern car as its fine justifying the argument on cost but you are only kidding yourself trying to say older cars are a nicer daily driver experience.

[Welshbeef]

One issue coming for the bangeromics crew is that car sales from 2007-2013 were shockingly low so will mean higher prices to come all else being equal.

Another issue increasing population immigrants want cheap cars so your battling with those for cheap cars more demand higher prices

Another issue is the impact of higher complexity vehicles where when things go wrong car is written off.

[bobbsie]

RB Will said:

In short if done right bangernomics is nearly always going to be the cheaper alternative.

but I do encourage a lot of the bangernomics supporters to try spending a bit of time in a modern car as its fine justifying the argument on cost but you are only kidding yourself trying to say older cars are a nicer daily driver experience.

both points valid.
Bangernomics may also, for some, be about the journey as well as the destination. Figuratively as well as literally.

older cars can be nicer DDs so long as they're reliable and offer some reward & pleasure. That probably also means that your DD activity is is on A & B roads. 25k miles a year in traffic and Mway, then a leased Audi sounds perfect. I'm probably talking about classics rather than bangers here too. so ignore everything...

[Digby]

TheAngryDog said:

Digby said:

TheAngryDog said:

Digby said:

Worth mentioning that when the car was delivered, it had moisture in the headlamp.I called one of the provided numbers, they forwarded it to the providing Audi dealer and they got back to me within the hour.At first they thought it may simply dry out but after sending them an image of the lamp, they told me to take it to my local Audi dealer (five minutes away) and get it inspected.Once there, they decided to replace the entire unit, paid for a taxi home and they called later that day to say the car was ready.They even washed it.

Edited by Digby on Monday 31st August 19:46

That's still an inconvenience which the idea of leasing is meant to avoid, is it not? Sure it was fixed foc, but this was a new car, it shouldn't of had that defect in the first place.

According to Audi themselves, it's not uncommon to find this on new cars and most should dry out without a problem.As for it being an inconvenience, it didn't bother me in the slightest.

I think it would irk with me on a brand new car. The reason for this thread by the OP is for the lack of issues when buying new, and on day one your car had an issue. Minor it may be.

I know lots of people who had numerous new cars (myself included) who had several issues and recalls.It may be safer to buy second hand so all the problems are ironed out!

[Bill]

Welshbeef said:

Another issue increasing population immigrants want cheap cars so your battling with those for cheap cars more demand higher prices

I think people are overstating the improvements in the last 10 years or so. Cars have got a bit safer and more powerful (with the associated complexity/fragility) but also heavier and there hasn't been any great leap in handling or comfort. Even 10 years ago you struggle to find a bad car.

[confused_buyer]

Bill said:

I think people are overstating the improvements in the last 10 years or so. Cars have got a bit safer and more powerful (with the associated complexity/fragility) but also heavier and there hasn't been any great leap in handling or comfort. Even 10 years ago you struggle to find a bad car.

I think it is fair to say there is a bigger leap between a 1985 car and a 2000 one than a 2000 one and a 2015 one.

By the late 90's most cars were pretty safe, pretty comfortable and had most of the equipment you actually need.

The only sector where there have been massive gains is the supermini one - try a 2000 Clio against a 2015 one. In the larger sector gains have been there but are quite small in many areas.

[Bill]

Absolutely.

[RYH64E]

confused_buyer said:

Bill said:

I think people are overstating the improvements in the last 10 years or so. Cars have got a bit safer and more powerful (with the associated complexity/fragility) but also heavier and there hasn't been any great leap in handling or comfort. Even 10 years ago you struggle to find a bad car.

I think it is fair to say there is a bigger leap between a 1985 car and a 2000 one than a 2000 one and a 2015 one.

By the late 90's most cars were pretty safe, pretty comfortable and had most of the equipment you actually need.

The only sector where there have been massive gains is the supermini one - try a 2000 Clio against a 2015 one. In the larger sector gains have been there but are quite small in many areas.

I'm not sure that I'd agree, there have been huge changes in emission control systems and a significant improvement in fuel efficiency in the last 10 years, all at the cost of added complexity. Many of the modern diesels will average over 60mpg compared to maybe 40mpg just a few years ago, and the proliferation of dpf, egr, stop start, dual mass flywheels, high pressure direct injection, dual clutch gear boxes etc make modern cars a daunting prospect for the diy mechanic or impoverished 2nd/3rd/4th owners.

[Welshbeef]

RYH64E said:

I'm not sure that I'd agree, there have been huge changes in emission control systems and a significant improvement in fuel efficiency in the last 10 years, all at the cost of added complexity. Many of the modern diesels will average over 60mpg compared to maybe 40mpg just a few years ago, and the proliferation of dpf, egr, stop start, dual mass flywheels, high pressure direct injection, dual clutch gear boxes etc make modern cars a daunting prospect for the diy mechanic or impoverished 2nd/3rd/4th owners.

Oh I disagree the VW Punp Duse diesels were and still are drastically more thermo efficient than common rail. Back in the Mk4 Golf 1.9 Gt Tdi PD that would do mid 60's average and into the 70's. That's a 16 year old car Common rail sent efficiency backwards sadly.