RE: Porsche 911 (997): PH Buying Guide
Discussion
Water Fairy said:
How much would a full engine rebuild cost on a £8k Fiesta ST? It's all relative.
It wouldn't as they generally don't break and because they don't break and tend to get crashed in preference, that means that you can get a replacement with a warranty for £1500 or so.Would love a 997 next, but can only really afford a 997.1 and would want to avoid buying someone elses problem, I know they don't all do it but just seems a bit risky, been bitten before by known problems on specific cars. I could possibly put more money in but it gets a bit ridiculous, so will probably just settle for a 2009 on Cayman S.
Ken Figenus said:
Its not a Porsche thing as all manufacturers drop the odd clanger (Nikasil on BMW's
) and then try to duck their 100% culpable c()ck up and defend their profits on the back of milking you for new parts prices - makes me mad! You'd think they would sell the affected parts for cost as an appeasement...silly me...
BMW goodwill replaced Nikasil short engines with an updated version FOC, when they were well out of warranty. Likewise cracked E46 boot floors, and E36 steering joints. I guess posters crowing about Turbo Mezger engines, haven't had to strip one to replace the internal glued together water pipes yet. ) and then try to duck their 100% culpable c()ck up and defend their profits on the back of milking you for new parts prices - makes me mad! You'd think they would sell the affected parts for cost as an appeasement...silly me...My dad’s A4 developed the well known high oil consumption that affected 1.8 and 2.0 turbo engines. The car was 8/9 years old and had FASH. They put a brand new engine in it for him FOC. If Audi can do it then Porsche bloody should have done it. Audi also paid 70% towards a new bonnet painted and fitted on my 10 year old R8 that had some minor edge bubbling. Very impressed.
I reckon the issues are a mix/match because they are large issues. Just because it’s a commonly discussed fault doesn’t make it a common fault. I still think 12k for a rebuild is daft! They clearly have issues. Hence the amount of reported faults.
All cars have their problems but I watched some videos from Porsche specialists from the US that claim the piston dwell duration and the thrust angle into the piston skirt (due to the con rod being short) exacerbates the bore scoring and a scope may not see far enough down the bore. Mind you they would hype that up as they want to keep rebuilding engines!
The IMS I think you just have to investigate prior to purchase as best you can. Although I don’t know how easy an actual inspection would be?
My M3 had the boot floor done, number 1 rod was good and the SMG pump replaced. Airbag warranty done and all the history you’d ever need. Head gasket went. Vanos went south and ended up costing 3k in repairs. Chuck in inspection 2 and that’s up to 4K! But it’s all done now. I’m happier for it. Have a war chest!
All cars have their problems but I watched some videos from Porsche specialists from the US that claim the piston dwell duration and the thrust angle into the piston skirt (due to the con rod being short) exacerbates the bore scoring and a scope may not see far enough down the bore. Mind you they would hype that up as they want to keep rebuilding engines!
The IMS I think you just have to investigate prior to purchase as best you can. Although I don’t know how easy an actual inspection would be?
My M3 had the boot floor done, number 1 rod was good and the SMG pump replaced. Airbag warranty done and all the history you’d ever need. Head gasket went. Vanos went south and ended up costing 3k in repairs. Chuck in inspection 2 and that’s up to 4K! But it’s all done now. I’m happier for it. Have a war chest!
blade7 said:
BMW goodwill replaced Nikasil short engines with an updated version FOC, when they were well out of warranty. Likewise cracked E46 boot floors, and E36 steering joints. I guess posters crowing about Turbo Mezger engines, haven't had to strip one to replace the internal glued together water pipes yet.
Having had issues in these areas i would like to point out that no they didn't - not for every case. The boot floor on my previous e46 was questioned and BMW wouldn't offer any assistance. Too old. Likewise both my e46 and my 130i had block issues and both with full BMW history and BMW would not offer anything towards costs.
I'm not saying that they didn't for any car, but certainly not all of them.
I just thought i'd say though that my main point of commenting doesn't come from owning a 911 - i want too and i'm at the point where i can afford to buy aforementioned 996 or 997.However, yes, maintenance costs are commensurate with the cost of the car i'm buying. But the scare factor of engine failure doesn't put me off buying one.
If fear factor played a part in my car purchases i honestly don't know what car i would buy. From run of the mill box to top of the line Supercar.
I've owned many many many cars and they've all had faults and issues and scare stories.
You hear and read so many scare stories ala -
Rover K Series (Lotus) - Headgasket issues
Porsche - As discussed here
Nissan GTR - Gearbox Issues
Corvette - Headgasket issues
Focus RS - Engine Cracking
Impreza - Incorrect map causing Headgasket failure/Ringland Failure/
Lancer EVO - SST Transmission eating itself/AYC Issues
BMW - Nikasil/Vanos/Boot Floor
Audi - Timing Chains/Coking
Ferrari 355 - Engine Fires
Lambo Aventador - Engine Fires
Bentley - Electrical Fire/Fuel Leaks
Toyota - Airbag deployment
Mercedes - Suspension failure
The list goes on and on and on and on. Spend enough time digging you could find reason to not buy a car no matter what your budget right??
Do i believe that German cars are the pinnacle of reliability hell no. But i could argue with some people i know till i'm blue in the face, that Audi's never break and BMW's are made of soild stuff - b*****ks. They are just as bad as everything else. They all have their issues.
Yes the bills for the Porsche are big, 10k on a 30K purchase but its all commensurate with the cost of the car in the first place.
Someone with only 5k to spend on an Audi doesn't want to spend 3k fixing a timing chain issue. BUT and its a big but. You bite the bullet and you roll the dice no matter what car you choose to own and drive. Fear stories are always worse than the reality, that's the joy of the internet. No one posts on forums about "nothing happened to my car today".
Ah well, i was bored before bed. Figured i'd do something worth while and as nothing happened to my car today. I put petrol in it and it worked - i'm winning at life right now (i own a Renault don't laugh)
Chubbyross said:
The problem with Porsches is that you can buy a lot of car for not a huge amount of money. A lot of people see Porsche as up there with Ferrari or Lamborghini - in motoring history they probably are up there with the former - and realise they can get hold of a 911 starting at around £20k. However, from experience you’ll need at least £1500 per annum in servicing (probably double that in the first year or two if you’ve only forked out £20k on a car right at the lower end of the spectrum). It would also be wise to put aside a Hartech-sized wadge of cash to cover an engine rebuild if necessary - around £12k. I still think that’s not a huge amount of money to buy into the marque. Try getting a Ferrari or Lamborghini for that kind of money and you won’t get far.
Basically, if you’re stretching yourself financially and worried about potential engine issues it’ll get in the way of your enjoyment of the car. I’ve looked into the possibility of buying a Ferrari in the past but servicing costs are prohibitively expensive. I’ll stick to porsche as the cars are amazing value and, on the whole, extremely well built and reliable.
+1Basically, if you’re stretching yourself financially and worried about potential engine issues it’ll get in the way of your enjoyment of the car. I’ve looked into the possibility of buying a Ferrari in the past but servicing costs are prohibitively expensive. I’ll stick to porsche as the cars are amazing value and, on the whole, extremely well built and reliable.
Go into it with the mindset that there's around a 10-15% chance of the engine going south, costing you anything between £6k to £15k and then just get on with driving the thing. Buying from a specialist and getting the bores 'scoped is recommended, or you could buy privately and have a specialist PPI conducted. Ensure you have a slush fund, keep your fingers crossed you won't have to use it and think of the total potential ownership cost vs benefit. Consider too, the relatively glacial depreciation. This will help with piece of mind and let you get on with enjoying the car.
Find yourself a reliable specialist indy and avoid OPCs if possible - mine was around £60/hr for labour a few years ago and would know what pattern parts to use and when to go OEM, which can save you loads. Some years you'll get away with £500ish on standard maintenance, others it'll be £2k+. I think an oil and filter service & inspection was around £180, 8L of oil IIRC was about £80 in itself. I'd recommend an annual service at an indy and then do an interim oil service yourself to save some cash and give yourself a chance get underneath the car and snoop around. Consumables don't need to replaced at specialists - brakes are easy to change yourself, tyres are reasonable with the standard sizes being more popular these days and exhausts and other consumables like coil packs can be changed relatively easily without breaking the bank.
One thing that seems to negatively affect 996 and 997.1s (and 987.1s) is lack of use. It's been suspected that some of the design flaws are down to Porsche not expecting the cars to be used in the manner they are in real life, so their test regimes didn't take into account cars sitting for a couple of weeks, taken out to be washed, then put back in again. Or taken out once a month for a blast, without being warmed up correctly. Or people living in cities and using them in stop-start traffic constantly, never getting them out for a good run up to temperature. This is obviously pure conjecture to anyone outside the company, but it makes sense when you consider their R&D programs generally put cars through millions of miles without issue.
I think Porsche could and should have handled the failures better. Their lack of willingness to accept the issues as their responsibility is pretty shocking. This, along with their antics on flogging GT cars has irrevocably tarnished the brand IMO and I don't feel the fanboy-ism for them the way I used to. But they're still wonderful cars and I'd have another in a heartbeat. A 986/996 track car project is definitely on the cards in the next couple of years
stevekoz said:
blade7 said:
BMW goodwill replaced Nikasil short engines with an updated version FOC, when they were well out of warranty. Likewise cracked E46 boot floors, and E36 steering joints. I guess posters crowing about Turbo Mezger engines, haven't had to strip one to replace the internal glued together water pipes yet.
Having had issues in these areas i would like to point out that no they didn't - not for every case. The boot floor on my previous e46 was questioned and BMW wouldn't offer any assistance. Too old. Likewise both my e46 and my 130i had block issues and both with full BMW history and BMW would not offer anything towards costs.
I'm not saying that they didn't for any car, but certainly not all of them.
I just thought i'd say though that my main point of commenting doesn't come from owning a 911 - i want too and i'm at the point where i can afford to buy aforementioned 996 or 997.However, yes, maintenance costs are commensurate with the cost of the car i'm buying. But the scare factor of engine failure doesn't put me off buying one.
If fear factor played a part in my car purchases i honestly don't know what car i would buy. From run of the mill box to top of the line Supercar.
I've owned many many many cars and they've all had faults and issues and scare stories.
You hear and read so many scare stories ala -
Rover K Series (Lotus) - Headgasket issues
Porsche - As discussed here
Nissan GTR - Gearbox Issues
Corvette - Headgasket issues
Focus RS - Engine Cracking
Impreza - Incorrect map causing Headgasket failure/Ringland Failure/
Lancer EVO - SST Transmission eating itself/AYC Issues
BMW - Nikasil/Vanos/Boot Floor
Audi - Timing Chains/Coking
Ferrari 355 - Engine Fires
Lambo Aventador - Engine Fires
Bentley - Electrical Fire/Fuel Leaks
Toyota - Airbag deployment
Mercedes - Suspension failure
The list goes on and on and on and on. Spend enough time digging you could find reason to not buy a car no matter what your budget right??
Do i believe that German cars are the pinnacle of reliability hell no. But i could argue with some people i know till i'm blue in the face, that Audi's never break and BMW's are made of soild stuff - b*****ks. They are just as bad as everything else. They all have their issues.
Yes the bills for the Porsche are big, 10k on a 30K purchase but its all commensurate with the cost of the car in the first place.
Someone with only 5k to spend on an Audi doesn't want to spend 3k fixing a timing chain issue. BUT and its a big but. You bite the bullet and you roll the dice no matter what car you choose to own and drive. Fear stories are always worse than the reality, that's the joy of the internet. No one posts on forums about "nothing happened to my car today".
Ah well, i was bored before bed. Figured i'd do something worth while and as nothing happened to my car today. I put petrol in it and it worked - i'm winning at life right now (i own a Renault don't laugh)
One issue I'd like to add to the above list, timing chain failures on BMW N47 turbo diesel motors. I had this go without warning at 116k on my other half's 120D, car was in excellent condition, full history, etc.
I guess we'll miss all this fun when cars are electric.
I've had my 997.1 c2s for about 3 years & only added about 2k miles, using it sporadically as a 3rd car.
Now I've sold my daily E46 330ci sport the Porsche has been pushed into daily use.
Took it on an 80 mile work trip yesterday & couldn't stop smiling. Its a manual car with a few sensible modifications (short shift kit, bucket seats, IPD throttle body etc) which transform the car.
It had an engine rebuild 16k ago & I make sure it's properly warmed up etc before giving it the beans & religiously check the oil level.
What a great car.
Now I've sold my daily E46 330ci sport the Porsche has been pushed into daily use.
Took it on an 80 mile work trip yesterday & couldn't stop smiling. Its a manual car with a few sensible modifications (short shift kit, bucket seats, IPD throttle body etc) which transform the car.
It had an engine rebuild 16k ago & I make sure it's properly warmed up etc before giving it the beans & religiously check the oil level.
What a great car.
stevekoz said:
blade7 said:
BMW goodwill replaced Nikasil short engines with an updated version FOC, when they were well out of warranty. Likewise cracked E46 boot floors, and E36 steering joints. I guess posters crowing about Turbo Mezger engines, haven't had to strip one to replace the internal glued together water pipes yet.
Having had issues in these areas i would like to point out that no they didn't - not for every case. The boot floor on my previous e46 was questioned and BMW wouldn't offer any assistance. Too old. Likewise both my e46 and my 130i had block issues and both with full BMW history and BMW would not offer anything towards costs.
I'm not saying that they didn't for any car, but certainly not all of them.
I've owned 2 997.1 C2S, both daily drives, put over 100k on them, faultless daily fun outside of usual running costs. I've also owned various M cars, E46, E60, E92, all had, "known" faults but I didn't see any of those either.
When buying cars I try to talk to owners who have lived with the cars to get a balanced view on what to expect, anyone buying a car on the advice of keyboard warriors or motor journalists with a day behind the wheel is like making life style decisions based on national press or BBC advice...
When buying cars I try to talk to owners who have lived with the cars to get a balanced view on what to expect, anyone buying a car on the advice of keyboard warriors or motor journalists with a day behind the wheel is like making life style decisions based on national press or BBC advice...
Chris-xhlcz said:
I’ve purchased a 997S in last few months, with a proper mechanical inspection and a Borescope test I don’t things there is much to worry about, yes it’s a 15 year old car and there will be bills in the future but the drive and that noise......feels special every time I start it, no regrets
Really the exterior design hasn’t changed much since 997 so if you want a modern Porsche for cheap, this is the best bet. I originally wanted a 991 but bought a 997.2 by accident and it turned out to be a good move since you never really want a gen 1 model. Too beta.
This is the last true sports car from Porsche before it went full GT. You get a normal manual hand brake, manual stick shift in the right place, and hydraulic steering for ultimate feel. You also get pure NA engine noise. Pure is important vs the fake-pumped-into-cabin noise you get from the turbo Porsches today. If I wanted fake engine noise, I’d stay home and play XBox.
Obviously, I’m biased since I own this car but this really checks all the boxes for me that I would never want another Porsche - iconic styling (those alien headlights on their non-Carrera cars are awful), sporty feel, still small (though significantly bigger from 993 and earlier models), manual everything (Nav system is sin/blessing. Practical but ruins look of interior), superior hydraulic steering, and NA engine. The last item you cannot get anymore and it’s not coming back.
This is the last true sports car from Porsche before it went full GT. You get a normal manual hand brake, manual stick shift in the right place, and hydraulic steering for ultimate feel. You also get pure NA engine noise. Pure is important vs the fake-pumped-into-cabin noise you get from the turbo Porsches today. If I wanted fake engine noise, I’d stay home and play XBox.
Obviously, I’m biased since I own this car but this really checks all the boxes for me that I would never want another Porsche - iconic styling (those alien headlights on their non-Carrera cars are awful), sporty feel, still small (though significantly bigger from 993 and earlier models), manual everything (Nav system is sin/blessing. Practical but ruins look of interior), superior hydraulic steering, and NA engine. The last item you cannot get anymore and it’s not coming back.
Gone through most of them!
997.1 Carrera S Tiptronic
I had this over a decade ago, and even then it felt as dated inside as the awful Tiptronic gearbox. I never got to grips with the lack of front end bite, and it never felt particularly quick. Moreso, the NVH was really quite poor. I was sold on the car being the complete all-rounder, but it didn't do much for me other than look good. For similar money I jumped into an M3 CSL - far more drama, better to drive, faster, still look great, and had more practicality.
997.2 Carrera 4S PDK
I was in a trance after seeing this car whilst my dad picked up a 997.1 Turbo (almost as bad as the 997.1 S I had, from my point of view). The 4S just looked delicious, being wide bodied - if anything exaggerated by the fact it had no wing. Thankfully, it was also a revelation to drive, with the 4WD (taking directly from the Turbo, rather than the antiquated 4WD on the previous gen) providing that confidence inspiring front end grip whilst still feeling rear wheel driven. Every element of the car was incrementally better despite the similar looks. The only downside was a lack of noise (sorted with a Sharwerks exhaust).
997.2 Turbo S PDK
As above but ballistic. In retrospect, I preferred the 4S as the Turbo makes very little noise. As a result, you chased ever illegal speeds for entertainment. Driving more modern sportscar afterwards, I also realised that the PDK was - although better than the Tiptronic - still boring. No blips on downshifts... no character.
997.1 GT3 & 997.2 GT3
To close to separate, but FAR removed from a regular 911, including the Turbo. The fact it is called a 911 almost confuses matters; they are so much better to drive that they aren't really in the same ballpark. Negligible difference between Gen 1 and Gen 2, but for me the Gen 2 is the perfect blend of modern/classic looks.
997.1 Carrera S Tiptronic
I had this over a decade ago, and even then it felt as dated inside as the awful Tiptronic gearbox. I never got to grips with the lack of front end bite, and it never felt particularly quick. Moreso, the NVH was really quite poor. I was sold on the car being the complete all-rounder, but it didn't do much for me other than look good. For similar money I jumped into an M3 CSL - far more drama, better to drive, faster, still look great, and had more practicality.
997.2 Carrera 4S PDK
I was in a trance after seeing this car whilst my dad picked up a 997.1 Turbo (almost as bad as the 997.1 S I had, from my point of view). The 4S just looked delicious, being wide bodied - if anything exaggerated by the fact it had no wing. Thankfully, it was also a revelation to drive, with the 4WD (taking directly from the Turbo, rather than the antiquated 4WD on the previous gen) providing that confidence inspiring front end grip whilst still feeling rear wheel driven. Every element of the car was incrementally better despite the similar looks. The only downside was a lack of noise (sorted with a Sharwerks exhaust).
997.2 Turbo S PDK
As above but ballistic. In retrospect, I preferred the 4S as the Turbo makes very little noise. As a result, you chased ever illegal speeds for entertainment. Driving more modern sportscar afterwards, I also realised that the PDK was - although better than the Tiptronic - still boring. No blips on downshifts... no character.
997.1 GT3 & 997.2 GT3
To close to separate, but FAR removed from a regular 911, including the Turbo. The fact it is called a 911 almost confuses matters; they are so much better to drive that they aren't really in the same ballpark. Negligible difference between Gen 1 and Gen 2, but for me the Gen 2 is the perfect blend of modern/classic looks.
I bought a 997 C2 in 2017 with then 190k miles on it (engine was at 90k miles back then).
Now I'm on 210k miles!
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
So far I have no regrets whatsoever and the car runs beautifully. While I do realize there are many owners with problems, these are an absolute joy when running well. And while there are two major engine woes (IMS bearing and bore scoring), you can still get lucky
Now I'm on 210k miles!
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
So far I have no regrets whatsoever and the car runs beautifully. While I do realize there are many owners with problems, these are an absolute joy when running well. And while there are two major engine woes (IMS bearing and bore scoring), you can still get lucky
Oh, and one more thing:
These cars need to be driven!
Especially in hindsight of bore scoring (according to flat six innovations). You have to use them regularly, warm them up properly and then drive them hard.
Like any car, they hate wide open throttle on low revs. Do not pottle around town in 4th gear and then floor it!
That is also why automatics seem to be more prone to bore scoring. Also garage queens are more often affected.
These cars need to be driven!
Especially in hindsight of bore scoring (according to flat six innovations). You have to use them regularly, warm them up properly and then drive them hard.
Like any car, they hate wide open throttle on low revs. Do not pottle around town in 4th gear and then floor it!
That is also why automatics seem to be more prone to bore scoring. Also garage queens are more often affected.
Bought my well specified 2007 4S (bose,chrono,turbo 19" wheels, black/black leather,tracker,phone kit,sat nav, rear radar,elec seats) in March 2014 with 30k miles for £29,000. Sold in august with 47k at £32,000 through PH. Biggest bill and a common one was coolant pipes. Full replacement was engine and gearbox out-few other jobs while in there plus wheel refurb was £3,700. Car was running great-just fancied a change. Corroded starter motor cable is another well known issue...imo its all in being patient and finding the right car-but with the bore score issue it can happen anytime. No short drives, regular oil changes (not the 20k porsche recommends), and allowing it to warm before a thrash is my advice.
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