RE: Porsche 911 (997): PH Buying Guide
Discussion
I bought a 2005 Carrera S with 35k miles on it from Porsche Guildford. Depreciated £10k in 4 years based on my selling price. Nothing really went wrong, drove to Le Mans, Denmark, Germany and put 20k miles on it. My favourite car purchase to date.
You can get replacement engines from Porsche should you be in the unlucky 10%. Similar rules apply such as bought from Porsche, full Porsche service history etc to get a chance of a reduced bill. They were circa £8k from memory to swap your engine.
Just bought a Ferrari 456 and the last 3 services have been £10k, £7k and about £6k. The car has covered 1,000 miles in this time.
My opinion having traded in an E46 M3 to a 997 Carrera S - no comparison. The move from M3 to 911 was the same as my Corrado VR6 to first M3.
Get them bought ;-)
You can get replacement engines from Porsche should you be in the unlucky 10%. Similar rules apply such as bought from Porsche, full Porsche service history etc to get a chance of a reduced bill. They were circa £8k from memory to swap your engine.
Just bought a Ferrari 456 and the last 3 services have been £10k, £7k and about £6k. The car has covered 1,000 miles in this time.
My opinion having traded in an E46 M3 to a 997 Carrera S - no comparison. The move from M3 to 911 was the same as my Corrado VR6 to first M3.
Get them bought ;-)
swisstoni said:
Where does the 10% failure rate stat come from?
Approximate figure taken from some old threads. There was a PH poll but note it attracted a majority of people who had issues and not the majority who didn’t. This was the opinion at the time anyway. Perhaps things have changed? What do you think it is?Porsche 964’s need engine rebuilds around the 100k mark as do other air cooled cars.
Following a few years of lusting after a 911 I finally achieved the dream a few weeks ago and bought an early 997 C2S Manual - I couldn't be happier with it! I swapped in my Westfield Megablade and 5 series touring for an all-in-one car. OK it's not as raw as the westfield, and not as comfortable as the 5 series... but as an all rounder it's incredible. Couldn't be happier and would recommend one to anyone.
Go in with eyes open to potential faults, make sure common issues are resolved (IMS, RMS etc etc)... and don't necessarily buy into the "every engine will blow up" ethos. Instead look up the failure rates and make a balanced decision, especially as the failures are a very low % of cars. Overall the reliability of these cars is very good (easy to say 2 weeks into ownership I know). Maintenance costs are not Fiesta cheap, but neither are they AM V8 Vantage expensive.
A great overview buying guide... and lets face it, anybody who is really in to there cars, and therefore reading this on Pistonheads will likely treat this as a guide for further research. From my experience you won't be disappointed if you do decide to buy one! Especially as they are unlikely to get much cheaper (just look at 996 prices which are now scarily close to the 997). It may not be quite as 'analogue' as the early 996 3.4, but it is N/A, it does have hydraulic steering etc... and they're awesome!
Go in with eyes open to potential faults, make sure common issues are resolved (IMS, RMS etc etc)... and don't necessarily buy into the "every engine will blow up" ethos. Instead look up the failure rates and make a balanced decision, especially as the failures are a very low % of cars. Overall the reliability of these cars is very good (easy to say 2 weeks into ownership I know). Maintenance costs are not Fiesta cheap, but neither are they AM V8 Vantage expensive.
A great overview buying guide... and lets face it, anybody who is really in to there cars, and therefore reading this on Pistonheads will likely treat this as a guide for further research. From my experience you won't be disappointed if you do decide to buy one! Especially as they are unlikely to get much cheaper (just look at 996 prices which are now scarily close to the 997). It may not be quite as 'analogue' as the early 996 3.4, but it is N/A, it does have hydraulic steering etc... and they're awesome!
I had a 2007 c2 bought early 2016 used very well till 2018, not a single issue and travelled London to south of France and back, also to south of Spain and back and used well in uk on various occasions, dead reliable. My take on is not to listen to those keyboard A. Einstein’s who paint every Gen 1 with the same brush, so far unless a lot of owners are not fessing up. The gen 1 cars are decent, usual checks and paying attention to bills from previous owner, let car warm up before hard use and they are good cars. I only sold up cause they are not as engaging as the old Aircooled cars and besides I wanted a 993. Else I miss my old reliable Gen 1 997.
It would be interesting to see the number of failures with pre 2006 (i.e the early bearing) and those with 2006-2008 cars.
From what I read before I bought my Gen 1 2008, it mostly affects the the pre 2006 and "S" engines, with the risk reducing quite a way for post 2006 and non-S cars.
Then you probably need to throw tiptronic vs manual into the mix, little chance of over reving a tip. But still, I think the fundamental factor will be pre 2006 and S cars seeing the bulk of woes.
Hence I bought a 2008 non-S, had it bore score checked when I bought it, having owned it for 2 years now I chucked a low temp thermostat on it to be safer and have had no issues with it.
No doubt some will have issues, but I have equally seen some issues emerging with the DFI gen 2's on forums.
In other news, yes they do they have their own silly issues like coil packs going quite early in life due to their position re: heat, waterpumps can let go with little warning (or play), the alu cooling pipes often corrode and most bolts near the engine/exhaust are made of cheese.
However they aren't actually that expensive in all cases to repair, particularly if you look at the OEM manufacturer, TRW for tie rods, Pierburg for the waterpump, Beru for the coil packs but often access is stupid because of that flat 6. So replacing something like an ignition cable = hours of labour.
I have owned all sorts of so called unreliable cars, from Maserati's, Alfa's e.t.c and none have let me down. It just comes down to doing your research, buy one that has looked after and do a bore score test if worried. Personally I wouldn't (didn't) buy a pre 2006 unless Hartech rebuilt but didn't have the "fear" post 2006.
From what I read before I bought my Gen 1 2008, it mostly affects the the pre 2006 and "S" engines, with the risk reducing quite a way for post 2006 and non-S cars.
Then you probably need to throw tiptronic vs manual into the mix, little chance of over reving a tip. But still, I think the fundamental factor will be pre 2006 and S cars seeing the bulk of woes.
Hence I bought a 2008 non-S, had it bore score checked when I bought it, having owned it for 2 years now I chucked a low temp thermostat on it to be safer and have had no issues with it.
No doubt some will have issues, but I have equally seen some issues emerging with the DFI gen 2's on forums.
In other news, yes they do they have their own silly issues like coil packs going quite early in life due to their position re: heat, waterpumps can let go with little warning (or play), the alu cooling pipes often corrode and most bolts near the engine/exhaust are made of cheese.
However they aren't actually that expensive in all cases to repair, particularly if you look at the OEM manufacturer, TRW for tie rods, Pierburg for the waterpump, Beru for the coil packs but often access is stupid because of that flat 6. So replacing something like an ignition cable = hours of labour.
I have owned all sorts of so called unreliable cars, from Maserati's, Alfa's e.t.c and none have let me down. It just comes down to doing your research, buy one that has looked after and do a bore score test if worried. Personally I wouldn't (didn't) buy a pre 2006 unless Hartech rebuilt but didn't have the "fear" post 2006.
Edited by V6Alfisti on Tuesday 17th November 16:44
dpop said:
Forget IMS, the biggest issue with these is finding one that is not in grey black or white... borderline impossible. This is a toy not a kitchen appliance - a shame on all the first owners of these for their poor colour choices!
Love the look of the yellow one in the article ,really nice in real life as is the red.Bought a grey one in the end , ease of resale did effect my decision.
V6Alfisti said:
It would be interesting to see the number of failures with pre 2006 (i.e the early bearing) and those with 2006-2008 cars.
From what I read before I bought my Gen 1 2008, it mostly affects the the pre 2006 and "S" engines, with the risk reducing quite a way for post 2006 and non-S cars.
Then you probably need to throw tiptronic vs manual into the mix, little chance of over reving a tip. But still, I think the fundamental factor will be pre 2006 and S cars seeing the bulk of woes.
Hence I bought a 2008 non-S, had it bore score checked when I bought it, having owned it for 2 years now I chucked a low temp thermostat on it to be safer and have had no issues with it.
No doubt some will have issues, but I have equally seen some issues emerging with the DFI gen 2's on forums.
In other news, yes they do they have their own silly issues like coil packs going quite early in life due to their position re: heat, waterpumps can let go with little warning (or play), the alu cooling pipes often corrode and most bolts near the engine/exhaust are made of cheese.
However they aren't actually that expensive in all cases to repair, particularly if you look at the OEM manufacturer, TRW for tie rods, Pierburg for the waterpump, Beru for the coil packs but often access is stupid because of that flat 6. So replacing something like an ignition cable = hours of labour.
I have owned all sorts of so called unreliable cars, from Maserati's, Alfa's e.t.c and none have let me down. It just comes down to doing your research, buy one that has looked after and do a bore score test if worried. Personally I wouldn't (didn't) buy a pre 2006 unless Hartech rebuilt but didn't have the "fear" post 2006.
My dad had a Carrera S Tiptronic for a good few years, not too long ago. He's had a few of these in the past previously. His had a pretty fresh rebuilt engine from Hartge i believe, that the seller had done just before moving it on. I think he still had to follow the running-in procedure for a bit after buying.From what I read before I bought my Gen 1 2008, it mostly affects the the pre 2006 and "S" engines, with the risk reducing quite a way for post 2006 and non-S cars.
Then you probably need to throw tiptronic vs manual into the mix, little chance of over reving a tip. But still, I think the fundamental factor will be pre 2006 and S cars seeing the bulk of woes.
Hence I bought a 2008 non-S, had it bore score checked when I bought it, having owned it for 2 years now I chucked a low temp thermostat on it to be safer and have had no issues with it.
No doubt some will have issues, but I have equally seen some issues emerging with the DFI gen 2's on forums.
In other news, yes they do they have their own silly issues like coil packs going quite early in life due to their position re: heat, waterpumps can let go with little warning (or play), the alu cooling pipes often corrode and most bolts near the engine/exhaust are made of cheese.
However they aren't actually that expensive in all cases to repair, particularly if you look at the OEM manufacturer, TRW for tie rods, Pierburg for the waterpump, Beru for the coil packs but often access is stupid because of that flat 6. So replacing something like an ignition cable = hours of labour.
I have owned all sorts of so called unreliable cars, from Maserati's, Alfa's e.t.c and none have let me down. It just comes down to doing your research, buy one that has looked after and do a bore score test if worried. Personally I wouldn't (didn't) buy a pre 2006 unless Hartech rebuilt but didn't have the "fear" post 2006.
Edited by V6Alfisti on Tuesday 17th November 16:44
He enjoyed it, but the upkeep wasn't cheap. Nothing really went wrong as such, apart from the gearbox deciding it only wanted to stay in park one day, which ended up resulting in several nail-biting weeks to find out what the issue was, and then receiving a hefty bill at the end when it was eventually rectified. I think that was the final straw for him, and he eventually sold up for a nearly-new M240i and a bit of a loss.
It shouldn't be a surprise that these can be expensive to run, but it definitely helps to go in eyes wide open. Consumables and basic stuff can add up pretty quickly. Rust was also making several re-appearances.
Hm. 997.1 Targa 3.6. Drove beautifully when it was working. Bought FSH from a good dealer network. Absolutely the worst built and least reliable car I have had in the last 10 years. The only thing that didn't go wrong was the IMS etc. It cost half the value of the car in warranty and repair costs in 18 months. The final straw was a known fault (according to my local specialist whose garden has about 20 Porsches in it at any one time) of poor quality wiring to the starter burning out and taking the starter and the power distribution board with it. By that point the car was 8 years old and rust was coming out from inside the A-pillars on both sides. A total and complete pile of s
t as a car. My sense is this was Porsche cash-strapped and doing a Mercedes - "make it look nice but reduce the quality massively". I am not a Porsche-hater - my wife's 2012 Cayenne GTS is still incredibly solid after 100k miles and feels almost new - we have had a rear wiper motor go in 5 years and 50k miles. I just think a 997.1 is a dreadful risk unless some idiot like me has bought badly and fixed it all already !
t as a car. My sense is this was Porsche cash-strapped and doing a Mercedes - "make it look nice but reduce the quality massively". I am not a Porsche-hater - my wife's 2012 Cayenne GTS is still incredibly solid after 100k miles and feels almost new - we have had a rear wiper motor go in 5 years and 50k miles. I just think a 997.1 is a dreadful risk unless some idiot like me has bought badly and fixed it all already ! Jamesas86 said:
Instead look up the failure rates and make a balanced decision, especially as the failures are a very low % of cars.
No one knows the failure rates, Porsche might have an idea internally but these are old cars now and if/when a failure occurs and it's taken to an indie it's not going to be reported to some central reference database.I've run my 06 C2S for nearly 5 years. Bought as a one owner 33,000 mile car with a full Porsche 110 point inspection (passed). It's now done 56,000 and is my only car. It gets very well used (bikes on the roof, weekends away etc).
At the end of the day it's quite an expensive car to run, but only if you're comparing to mainstream brands as obviously the repair costs are commensurate with the initial cost of the car. All consumables cost a lot compared to, say, a 3 series. I put new discs and pads on mine last year and parts alone were c£600+. Tyres will set you back £1,000 for four, but hey what would you expect??
I don't know if my experience way typical but I had pretty big bills in the first two years (coolant pipes, clutch + flywheel, inner door liners as it was leaking water in to the car, coil packs, front to back power cable, some other bits) all of which were clearly missed or not included in the the Porsche inspection and not covered by the warranty it came with. I imagine, some of those things were potentially known by the former owner and may have played a part in his deciding to sell it. All of that cost me a few thousand pounds. Since then it throws up 14 year old car stuff every now and then, which is to be expected.
You cannot run a 997 in a tight budget. Don't buy a £25k car if you only have £25k!!
As others have said, Porsches also like to be used. I had a 968 Clubsport before the 911 which I rarely used and it was forever binding its brakes or needing new drop links or bushes or wanting for something. The 911 too doesn't seem to like sitting around. They're oldish cars now and stuff goes wrong, when it does it'll be quite expensive so have some spare cash. The fact that I still have mine should tell you that the experience of owning it for me far outweighs the fear of fixing it. In 35 years of driving I haven't owned any other car for any near 5 years and the 997 isn't going anywhere.
At the end of the day it's quite an expensive car to run, but only if you're comparing to mainstream brands as obviously the repair costs are commensurate with the initial cost of the car. All consumables cost a lot compared to, say, a 3 series. I put new discs and pads on mine last year and parts alone were c£600+. Tyres will set you back £1,000 for four, but hey what would you expect??
I don't know if my experience way typical but I had pretty big bills in the first two years (coolant pipes, clutch + flywheel, inner door liners as it was leaking water in to the car, coil packs, front to back power cable, some other bits) all of which were clearly missed or not included in the the Porsche inspection and not covered by the warranty it came with. I imagine, some of those things were potentially known by the former owner and may have played a part in his deciding to sell it. All of that cost me a few thousand pounds. Since then it throws up 14 year old car stuff every now and then, which is to be expected.
You cannot run a 997 in a tight budget. Don't buy a £25k car if you only have £25k!!
As others have said, Porsches also like to be used. I had a 968 Clubsport before the 911 which I rarely used and it was forever binding its brakes or needing new drop links or bushes or wanting for something. The 911 too doesn't seem to like sitting around. They're oldish cars now and stuff goes wrong, when it does it'll be quite expensive so have some spare cash. The fact that I still have mine should tell you that the experience of owning it for me far outweighs the fear of fixing it. In 35 years of driving I haven't owned any other car for any near 5 years and the 997 isn't going anywhere.
I’ve had a 2008 997.2 C4s manual for 4 years now. Looked at trading it in for a newer 911 but somehow I just can’t part with it. Love the look of the wide-body in it's most simple form, the planted feeling you get with 4wd and MPS4S tyres. Also the fact it no longer depreciates too much. Newer offerings I was looking at were twice the price but didn’t offer twice the experience (with exception of the GT products - didn’t fancy the welding required in a 997.1 for a rear seat for my son).
The downside is the standard exhaust sound is underwhelming. I have a Topgear X-Pipe but it doesn’t make much difference - shoud have gone to SharkWerks! It’s generally been very cheap to run if you fit OEM maker parts (Textar, Bilstein etc) readily available from generic car parts stores online in-between main dealer services. After 50-60,000 miles, the suspension parts may need refreshing and replacing a whole PASM setup can get quite expensive when new dampers are required.
Analogue feel, usable horsepower and a contemporary design - might be all the car I ever need.
The downside is the standard exhaust sound is underwhelming. I have a Topgear X-Pipe but it doesn’t make much difference - shoud have gone to SharkWerks! It’s generally been very cheap to run if you fit OEM maker parts (Textar, Bilstein etc) readily available from generic car parts stores online in-between main dealer services. After 50-60,000 miles, the suspension parts may need refreshing and replacing a whole PASM setup can get quite expensive when new dampers are required.
Analogue feel, usable horsepower and a contemporary design - might be all the car I ever need.
Edited by Sisu9 on Tuesday 17th November 20:38
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