RE: Porsche 911 (997): PH Buying Guide
Discussion
Bla Bla Engine Issues Bla Bla
Bla IMS Bla Bla Bore Scoring Bla
Bla Bla Bla
Plenty of gen 1's at track days and seeing
more and more on public roads...so can't
be all that bad.
PH's review seems well balanced, from a
daily-driver ownership perspective, and if
in doubt regarding model differentiation, and
all that Porsche brand-marketing rubbish, I'd
highly recommend Clarkson's Top Gear review.
Bla IMS Bla Bla Bore Scoring Bla
Bla Bla Bla
Plenty of gen 1's at track days and seeing
more and more on public roads...so can't
be all that bad.
PH's review seems well balanced, from a
daily-driver ownership perspective, and if
in doubt regarding model differentiation, and
all that Porsche brand-marketing rubbish, I'd
highly recommend Clarkson's Top Gear review.
jakesmith said:
If a £10k bill would terrify you it's not for you, I personally don't think it's that likely, given what I've read I think the 5%-10% failure range but there's no way of knowing. I'm not sure what else is comparable though at the price in terms of looks, driving, prestige
A 10k bill on a car that cost 20k would terrify anyone tbh.Welshbeef said:
St John Smythe said:
A 10k bill on a car that cost 20k would terrify anyone tbh.
Top Gear £10k super car episode Masserstti £10k car which just had a £7-8k engine full restoration ..... And then only went to spit it's bits out when asked to do some work. ButziFan said:
Bla Bla Engine Issues Bla Bla
Bla IMS Bla Bla Bore Scoring Bla
Bla Bla Bla
Plenty of gen 1's at track days and seeing
more and more on public roads...so can't
be all that bad.
PH's review seems well balanced, from a
daily-driver ownership perspective, and if
in doubt regarding model differentiation, and
all that Porsche brand-marketing rubbish, I'd
highly recommend Clarkson's Top Gear review.
This, I completely agree!!Bla IMS Bla Bla Bore Scoring Bla
Bla Bla Bla
Plenty of gen 1's at track days and seeing
more and more on public roads...so can't
be all that bad.
PH's review seems well balanced, from a
daily-driver ownership perspective, and if
in doubt regarding model differentiation, and
all that Porsche brand-marketing rubbish, I'd
highly recommend Clarkson's Top Gear review.
They are great cars and if you ever have the fortunate opportunity to drive or even own one, you'll understand why! I imagine, whatever the car there are the relevant horror stories of problem this, failure that!
As an aside some of the amounts of money being quoted in this thread are way off piste! Its a premium car, with premium needs and therefore premium running costs! Comparatives to generic German saloons are pointless - different type of car!
There is a solution to all these problems , save your pennies and buy a turbo , 200 mph supercar , 32 mpg ,with kids in the back £500 specialist service bill ,0 depreciation it's the thinking mans Ferrari , gen 1 turbo 2006 - 2009 with manual gearbox , you can't go wrong , buy one now before the prices go north, and they will!
ronnie middlemis said:
There is a solution to all these problems , save your pennies and buy a turbo , 200 mph supercar , 32 mpg ,with kids in the back £500 specialist service bill ,0 depreciation it's the thinking mans Ferrari , gen 1 turbo 2006 - 2009 with manual gearbox , you can't go wrong , buy one now before the prices go north, and they will!
Now here is a man talking sense, the only problem is finding one. Even the LHD European market seems to have cottoned on.Wells just say you spend £27,000 on a 2006 3.8s and the worst happens , a engine rebuild is the best part of 7-8 k you are now into the car for £35,000 , on a car that's still worth 27k , you can still pick gen 1 turbos up for 42k , these engines are bullet proof they can handle in excess of 1000 bhp , make sure it has sports chrono plus .They must be the bargain of the century
It's really stupid to justify expensive rebuild costs by pointing out a Porsche is a premium car. That the turbos don't pose that same risk of engine failure puts that ridiculous argument to rest. Clearly Porsche was too cheap to stick the turbo block on NA 911s.
If the failure is uncommon, then Porsche should really have done something to make sure that no one gets the short stick, after all it's not like one picks their own engine. They did have over 15 years to act. I understand Porsche would not want to actually pay for their engineering failure, but a for-pay warranty program could have been initiated.
What am I on about, as if Porsche cares about their customers or about anything but profits.
If the failure is uncommon, then Porsche should really have done something to make sure that no one gets the short stick, after all it's not like one picks their own engine. They did have over 15 years to act. I understand Porsche would not want to actually pay for their engineering failure, but a for-pay warranty program could have been initiated.
What am I on about, as if Porsche cares about their customers or about anything but profits.
"... a rebuilt engine from Hartech will set you back from £8,000. The intermediate shaft bearing can let go with no warning, but it's quite rare ... it will also require a fully rebuilt engine."
Yeah, well thanks for the specifics, but no amount of understatement can brush that to one side ... and I'm someone who could otherwise be readily persuaded to scratch that itch.
Yeah, well thanks for the specifics, but no amount of understatement can brush that to one side ... and I'm someone who could otherwise be readily persuaded to scratch that itch.
Pommygranite said:
I think that the fact it gets mentioned so often would give credence to it being more than just a 1% chance.
Many people perpetuating a rumour does not equate to any objective truth. This is a classic case of "Internet Fearmongering".Whenever these cars come up in any kind of discussion, there are always "experts" spouting claims about engine reliability (or lack thereof). The thing is, many of these people have never owner this car, never experienced an engine failure themselves or even did a modicum of research into the issue. They are perpetuating what someone has told them or what they have read somewhere ad infinitum.
The IMS is not a problem for any post 2006 997. To my knowledge, there has never been a documented case of IMS-derived engine failure in these cars with the larger, updated bearing. Bore scoring does happen - more so in the 3.8 - but it is fairly rare. A properly maintained 997.1 engine that was treated in the right manner will live to see a normal mileage. The frequency of these engine failures has been blown way out of proportion. It should still be mentioned, however, that this is still a high-performance vehicle that we're talking about and engine failures do generally happen, especially in this type of car. I don't know why it's always the 997 and (more so) the 996 that gets the internet hate for this, but look at any other comparable car. ALMOST all of them will feature similar horror stories. Even the E92 M3, mentioned earlier in this thread, is not faultless in this regard (there are a number of users on German BMW boards with engine rebuilds prior to 100k KM). Let's not even talk about the early Corvette Z06s, few of which made it past 20k miles, or the transmissions on early GT-Rs (which cost a bit more to fix/replace than a 997 engine). Even the 997.2 has issues of its own and quite a few of these have needed rebuilds as well. Does this mean that the 997.2 engines are poorly designed? No, but they are sports car engines and some DO fail.
In the UK, you can even get on the Hartech plan, no matter what mileage/age your car is, if you can't sleep soundly at night for fear of your engine blowing up...
But, full disclosure here, these are still not "cheap" cars to own and operate. I've had my 997 for almost 2 years now and in the first year of ownership spent almost 10k € on maintenance and repairs alone, due to seemingly random things breaking (rear spoiler assembly and controls, 3k €), plus brakes, suspension components and the RMS leak. To be on the safe side, I took out an OPC warranty for the next two years (cars are eligible up to 10 years of age, at least here in Germany) - since then, absolutely nothing has broken (go figure). The 10k I had to put down may seem like a lot, but I had already budgeted for this. I paid for the car in cash and had enough reserves lying around for any such eventualities. If you're not that flush and on a shoestring budget, I would not recommend toying with the idea of buying an aging Porsche - or any formerly expensive German car for that matter. Things will break. Apart from all this, the car has been holding its value extremely well. The market over here in Germany has not dipped below the price I paid for mine 2 years ago and I don't expect I'll have taken much of a direct loss when/if I sell mine next year (running costs excluded, of course).
In retrospect, I've been really happy with my car. I've always wanted a 911 and wouldn't know any car I'd rather drive right now - I was 22 when I bought mine and extremely proud to be owning a 911. I wouldn't give much thought to the engine issues - if it's a problem for you, get on the Hartech plan, get the OPC warranty or save up for a 997.2 for a slightly lesser risk. But, like any sports car (especially a German one), things can and will break - and things can and will cost money. If you're OK with that, the 997 is a terrific drive at this price point (well, at any price point, if we're being honest) and a great, modern sports car with just the right amount of old-school 911 rawness. The only thing that truly annoys me about my car is the amount of squaks and rattles inside the cabin - something all 911s up to the and including the 991 suffer to some degree.
St John Smythe said:
A 10k bill on a car that cost 20k would terrify anyone tbh.
Nor really. For some, definately. If the £20k purchase is a stretch then yes you're out on a limb financially trying to run such a car without the backing - particularly if it's your main car.If you're a bit less stretched though and/or you can store the car while you get the money together it's a risk many would take.
The price point and rebuild costs are in a similar ballpark to Speed Six engined TVRs. Whilst that prospect surely terrified some, there are enough people who aren't terrified to gradually appreciate the values of the cars.
My 997 head gasket went on bank 1,2,and 3 , it's a 06 plate with the bigger improved bearing. On strip down I was summonced to the Porsche specialists , the engineer pointed out that the ims bearing should spin freely , this one was very notchy and concluded that it was on its way out, he got a second opinion from the Porsche centre near by , they Said it had at best 5,000 miles in it . Needless to say I agreed to have a new ims bearing , problem is with the bigger bearing cars you have to split the crank to get the old bearing out , Harlech are going to press a new bearing on and hopefully that should be the end of the nightmare , so from someone who has experience this first hand and not just read about it can I just say it does happen
jamieduff1981 said:
St John Smythe said:
A 10k bill on a car that cost 20k would terrify anyone tbh.
Nor really. For some, definately. If the £20k purchase is a stretch then yes you're out on a limb financially trying to run such a car without the backing - particularly if it's your main car.If you're a bit less stretched though and/or you can store the car while you get the money together it's a risk many would take.
The price point and rebuild costs are in a similar ballpark to Speed Six engined TVRs. Whilst that prospect surely terrified some, there are enough people who aren't terrified to gradually appreciate the values of the cars.
One thing I don't understand is why the 997 still has issues after the 996. Does anyone know why this is? Surely Porsche would of used this as an opportunity to make the engines bulletproof again?
St John Smythe said:
Having owned a few TVRs (and having to have the Chimaera's engine rebuilt) I disagree. A TVR is a handbuilt sports car and in buying one of those you expect to have to pay out big at some point. I wouldn't expect to be landed with an engine rebuild at half the purchase price on a mass produced well developed German car like a Porsche. Neither would 99.9% of the buying public. Majority consider Porsche to be a paragon of reliability if you ask them. A cut above the likes of BMW, Audi, Merc, etc.
One thing I don't understand is why the 997 still has issues after the 996. Does anyone know why this is? Surely Porsche would of used this as an opportunity to make the engines bulletproof again?
They did with the 997 Gen 2, but their engine cycles are half a phase out of sync with platforms - so the engines in the 997.1 were developments of the 996 engines and the 991.1 engines are derived from the 997.2. I think the issues probably weren't clear enough when they rolled the 997 into production and whether we like it or not, they're a business that had to get the updated model out. Also, the issues are thought to be more common on the 3.8 which only came with the 997.One thing I don't understand is why the 997 still has issues after the 996. Does anyone know why this is? Surely Porsche would of used this as an opportunity to make the engines bulletproof again?
I am off the school of thought that says if you're buying second hand you can buy with the knowledge that things can go wrong so be prepared. If you bought new or nearly new the warranty would have looked after you, so pragmatically you just need to research and know what you're buying.
Simply fantastic cars, lots of cats have known issues that can be horrifically expensive to fix later in life and hence they get scrapped with little fanfare, difference with a 911 is that people are now prepared to fix them and keep them going. My 320d engine blew up at 80k miles, hole in the block after being fully serviced by BMW it's whole life - new engine needed...
If the 2006 engines are sorted, then it took them 10 years. Without rectifying engines already built. My thought, if i were considering a 997, the obvious question is:
Why not the v8 vantage? Bulletproof engine. Reliability like a...er... aircooled porsche. Non need to keep 50% of the cost jst in case.
Why not the v8 vantage? Bulletproof engine. Reliability like a...er... aircooled porsche. Non need to keep 50% of the cost jst in case.
williamp said:
If the 2006 engines are sorted, then it took them 10 years. Without rectifying engines already built. My thought, if i were considering a 997, the obvious question is:
Why not the v8 vantage? Bulletproof engine. Reliability like a...er... aircooled porsche. Non need to keep 50% of the cost jst in case.
Maybe, but it isn't rear engined.Why not the v8 vantage? Bulletproof engine. Reliability like a...er... aircooled porsche. Non need to keep 50% of the cost jst in case.
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