RE: Porsche 911 (997): PH Buying Guide
Discussion
williamp said:
If the 2006 engines are sorted, then it took them 10 years. Without rectifying engines already built. My thought, if i were considering a 997, the obvious question is:
Why not the v8 vantage? Bulletproof engine. Reliability like a...er... aircooled porsche. Non need to keep 50% of the cost jst in case.
Aircooled Porsche engines aren't perfect they don't usually detonate, but oil leaks and engine studs breaking are known issues (model dependent). The big aircooled issue is RUST.Why not the v8 vantage? Bulletproof engine. Reliability like a...er... aircooled porsche. Non need to keep 50% of the cost jst in case.
I've had a 2004 3.6 since December 2014. Paid £18,500 privately for it. Very pleased with it. I can only speak from my experience, but if you are thinking about it I would highly recommend one. No idea how common the engine issues are but as others have said it was an expensive car new so you have to expect some big bills at some point. I bought mine on this basis for cash as a weekend toy and can't think of anything I would rather have had for the same money.
See, I often think a 911 would be a nice step up from my S2000. The S2000 has spoilt me. You can kick it's head in every day and not worry about the silly kind of problems 911 engines suffer from. As someone mentioned, it would always be in the back of your mind.
Whether you have the money or not, spending nearly half the value of the car again on repairing it if/when it goes bang is not good value. Worrying about how long it will last will really detract from the enjoyment of owning one. Maybe I have just read too many horror stories online. Maybe it will all be great. Personally I wouldn't want to roll that (weighted) dice each time I get in a car :-(
Whether you have the money or not, spending nearly half the value of the car again on repairing it if/when it goes bang is not good value. Worrying about how long it will last will really detract from the enjoyment of owning one. Maybe I have just read too many horror stories online. Maybe it will all be great. Personally I wouldn't want to roll that (weighted) dice each time I get in a car :-(
St John Smythe said:
jamieduff1981 said:
St John Smythe said:
A 10k bill on a car that cost 20k would terrify anyone tbh.
Nor really. For some, definately. If the £20k purchase is a stretch then yes you're out on a limb financially trying to run such a car without the backing - particularly if it's your main car.If you're a bit less stretched though and/or you can store the car while you get the money together it's a risk many would take.
The price point and rebuild costs are in a similar ballpark to Speed Six engined TVRs. Whilst that prospect surely terrified some, there are enough people who aren't terrified to gradually appreciate the values of the cars.
One thing I don't understand is why the 997 still has issues after the 996. Does anyone know why this is? Surely Porsche would of used this as an opportunity to make the engines bulletproof again?
If you're after a Porsche because you want a Porsche then great. If you think a Porsche is an incremental step up from a Honda then and Porsche bills are not something you'd be prepared to stomache then IMHO you're not in a position to run such a car.
If a Maserati scares you, don't consider a Porsche. Same goes for TVR, Ferrari etc. If your repair budgets are at Ford Fiesta levels then bonafide sportscars are not where you're at. I've genuinely got no idea why the British in particular have this idea that German cars don't bite financially.
jamieduff1981 said:
If people can reconcile their unsubstantiated views that German cars are particularly reliable (and for the sake of example, that TVRs are particularly unreliable) and view a high performance car for what it is there wouldn't be an issue.
If you're after a Porsche because you want a Porsche then great. If you think a Porsche is an incremental step up from a Honda then and Porsche bills are not something you'd be prepared to stomache then IMHO you're not in a position to run such a car.
If a Maserati scares you, don't consider a Porsche. Same goes for TVR, Ferrari etc. If your repair budgets are at Ford Fiesta levels then bonafide sportscars are not where you're at. I've genuinely got no idea why the British in particular have this idea that German cars don't bite financially.
But it's not the usual Porsche bills you have to deal with. I agree you should go in eyes wide open for these. However a bill of half the purchase price for an engine rebuild shouldn't be considered the norm.If you're after a Porsche because you want a Porsche then great. If you think a Porsche is an incremental step up from a Honda then and Porsche bills are not something you'd be prepared to stomache then IMHO you're not in a position to run such a car.
If a Maserati scares you, don't consider a Porsche. Same goes for TVR, Ferrari etc. If your repair budgets are at Ford Fiesta levels then bonafide sportscars are not where you're at. I've genuinely got no idea why the British in particular have this idea that German cars don't bite financially.
^ I think there's a lot of people, myself included, who would be happy to stomach the normal "Porsche bills". Normal running/maintenance costs on a Carrera are perfectly reasonable. Until you have to lay down the best part of 10k in one go because of a 15 year old engine flaw. That's not acceptable to many folk and I think Porsche have done themselves a disservice because of this.
I'll just wait until I can buy a brand new one with a fat warranty ;-)
I'll just wait until I can buy a brand new one with a fat warranty ;-)
RichwiththeS2000 said:
^ I think there's a lot of people, myself included, who would be happy to stomach the normal "Porsche bills". Normal running/maintenance costs on a Carrera are perfectly reasonable. Until you have to lay down the best part of 10k in one go because of a 15 year old engine flaw. That's not acceptable to many folk and I think Porsche have done themselves a disservice because of this.
I'll just wait until I can buy a brand new one with a fat warranty ;-)
I can't ever see myself in a 991 so it's not a case of waiting. I buy cars, not marques.I'll just wait until I can buy a brand new one with a fat warranty ;-)
RichwiththeS2000 said:
^ I think there's a lot of people, myself included, who would be happy to stomach the normal "Porsche bills". Normal running/maintenance costs on a Carrera are perfectly reasonable. Until you have to lay down the best part of 10k in one go because of a 15 year old engine flaw. That's not acceptable to many folk and I think Porsche have done themselves a disservice because of this.
I'll just wait until I can buy a brand new one with a fat warranty ;-)
I can see why it would put people off, I've recently swapped out of modified car into a fast standard car because i'm fed up with working on them and it not working when I want to drive. On the flip side, i'm about 3 years off a 911 at the moment but when i'm ready to buy a 997 i'll be fully aware of the pit falls because its so well documented so it'll not put me off. The time i've been looking at these things is also the time the problems have been very public so for me buying a 911, or any Porsche of this age range, includes an engine thats got its faults. I wont be spending 35K on one though, i'll buy a much cheaper one (hopefully if prices dont go mental) and have the spare cash for the rebuild.I'll just wait until I can buy a brand new one with a fat warranty ;-)
I'm also well aware that other cars have their issues, I didnt buy an E46 M3 because all the ones in my budget were about to have the back end fall off and I wouldnt have an RS4 because of the coking issue. I did buy a VX220 because I can afford to fix the things that can go wrong, which are well documented.
Pommygranite said:
I think that the fact it gets mentioned so often would give credence to it being more than just a 1% chance.
quite - but that 1% was for bore scoring, it was the IMS issue that was defined as being "quite rare" - both requiring engine rebuilds. 1%, even as a guestimate gives you an idea, but ... "quite rare" for catastrophic IMS failure in a buying guide is of little help.freeman2344 said:
Many people perpetuating a rumour does not equate to any objective truth. This is a classic case of "Internet Fearmongering".
Whenever these cars come up in any kind of discussion, there are always "experts" spouting claims about engine reliability (or lack thereof). The thing is, many of these people have never owner this car, never experienced an engine failure themselves or even did a modicum of research into the issue. They are perpetuating what someone has told them or what they have read somewhere ad infinitum.
The IMS is not a problem for any post 2006 997. To my knowledge, there has never been a documented case of IMS-derived engine failure in these cars with the larger, updated bearing. Bore scoring does happen - more so in the 3.8 - but it is fairly rare. A properly maintained 997.1 engine that was treated in the right manner will live to see a normal mileage. The frequency of these engine failures has been blown way out of proportion. It should still be mentioned, however, that this is still a high-performance vehicle that we're talking about and engine failures do generally happen, especially in this type of car. I don't know why it's always the 997 and (more so) the 996 that gets the internet hate for this, but look at any other comparable car. ALMOST all of them will feature similar horror stories. Even the E92 M3, mentioned earlier in this thread, is not faultless in this regard (there are a number of users on German BMW boards with engine rebuilds prior to 100k KM). Let's not even talk about the early Corvette Z06s, few of which made it past 20k miles, or the transmissions on early GT-Rs (which cost a bit more to fix/replace than a 997 engine). Even the 997.2 has issues of its own and quite a few of these have needed rebuilds as well. Does this mean that the 997.2 engines are poorly designed? No, but they are sports car engines and some DO fail.
In the UK, you can even get on the Hartech plan, no matter what mileage/age your car is, if you can't sleep soundly at night for fear of your engine blowing up...
But, full disclosure here, these are still not "cheap" cars to own and operate. I've had my 997 for almost 2 years now and in the first year of ownership spent almost 10k € on maintenance and repairs alone, due to seemingly random things breaking (rear spoiler assembly and controls, 3k €), plus brakes, suspension components and the RMS leak. To be on the safe side, I took out an OPC warranty for the next two years (cars are eligible up to 10 years of age, at least here in Germany) - since then, absolutely nothing has broken (go figure). The 10k I had to put down may seem like a lot, but I had already budgeted for this. I paid for the car in cash and had enough reserves lying around for any such eventualities. If you're not that flush and on a shoestring budget, I would not recommend toying with the idea of buying an aging Porsche - or any formerly expensive German car for that matter. Things will break. Apart from all this, the car has been holding its value extremely well. The market over here in Germany has not dipped below the price I paid for mine 2 years ago and I don't expect I'll have taken much of a direct loss when/if I sell mine next year (running costs excluded, of course).
In retrospect, I've been really happy with my car. I've always wanted a 911 and wouldn't know any car I'd rather drive right now - I was 22 when I bought mine and extremely proud to be owning a 911. I wouldn't give much thought to the engine issues - if it's a problem for you, get on the Hartech plan, get the OPC warranty or save up for a 997.2 for a slightly lesser risk. But, like any sports car (especially a German one), things can and will break - and things can and will cost money. If you're OK with that, the 997 is a terrific drive at this price point (well, at any price point, if we're being honest) and a great, modern sports car with just the right amount of old-school 911 rawness. The only thing that truly annoys me about my car is the amount of squaks and rattles inside the cabin - something all 911s up to the and including the 991 suffer to some degree.
Got to give you kudos for such a fair representation of your experiences (notwithstanding the 06 IMS failure Ronnie Middlemis reported in this thread), and you are also, ironically, I think the only person to mention the RMS leak in this thread. That seems to have slipped by. Appreciate your thoughts.Whenever these cars come up in any kind of discussion, there are always "experts" spouting claims about engine reliability (or lack thereof). The thing is, many of these people have never owner this car, never experienced an engine failure themselves or even did a modicum of research into the issue. They are perpetuating what someone has told them or what they have read somewhere ad infinitum.
The IMS is not a problem for any post 2006 997. To my knowledge, there has never been a documented case of IMS-derived engine failure in these cars with the larger, updated bearing. Bore scoring does happen - more so in the 3.8 - but it is fairly rare. A properly maintained 997.1 engine that was treated in the right manner will live to see a normal mileage. The frequency of these engine failures has been blown way out of proportion. It should still be mentioned, however, that this is still a high-performance vehicle that we're talking about and engine failures do generally happen, especially in this type of car. I don't know why it's always the 997 and (more so) the 996 that gets the internet hate for this, but look at any other comparable car. ALMOST all of them will feature similar horror stories. Even the E92 M3, mentioned earlier in this thread, is not faultless in this regard (there are a number of users on German BMW boards with engine rebuilds prior to 100k KM). Let's not even talk about the early Corvette Z06s, few of which made it past 20k miles, or the transmissions on early GT-Rs (which cost a bit more to fix/replace than a 997 engine). Even the 997.2 has issues of its own and quite a few of these have needed rebuilds as well. Does this mean that the 997.2 engines are poorly designed? No, but they are sports car engines and some DO fail.
In the UK, you can even get on the Hartech plan, no matter what mileage/age your car is, if you can't sleep soundly at night for fear of your engine blowing up...
But, full disclosure here, these are still not "cheap" cars to own and operate. I've had my 997 for almost 2 years now and in the first year of ownership spent almost 10k € on maintenance and repairs alone, due to seemingly random things breaking (rear spoiler assembly and controls, 3k €), plus brakes, suspension components and the RMS leak. To be on the safe side, I took out an OPC warranty for the next two years (cars are eligible up to 10 years of age, at least here in Germany) - since then, absolutely nothing has broken (go figure). The 10k I had to put down may seem like a lot, but I had already budgeted for this. I paid for the car in cash and had enough reserves lying around for any such eventualities. If you're not that flush and on a shoestring budget, I would not recommend toying with the idea of buying an aging Porsche - or any formerly expensive German car for that matter. Things will break. Apart from all this, the car has been holding its value extremely well. The market over here in Germany has not dipped below the price I paid for mine 2 years ago and I don't expect I'll have taken much of a direct loss when/if I sell mine next year (running costs excluded, of course).
In retrospect, I've been really happy with my car. I've always wanted a 911 and wouldn't know any car I'd rather drive right now - I was 22 when I bought mine and extremely proud to be owning a 911. I wouldn't give much thought to the engine issues - if it's a problem for you, get on the Hartech plan, get the OPC warranty or save up for a 997.2 for a slightly lesser risk. But, like any sports car (especially a German one), things can and will break - and things can and will cost money. If you're OK with that, the 997 is a terrific drive at this price point (well, at any price point, if we're being honest) and a great, modern sports car with just the right amount of old-school 911 rawness. The only thing that truly annoys me about my car is the amount of squaks and rattles inside the cabin - something all 911s up to the and including the 991 suffer to some degree.
I Rock said:
Don't buy one . Simples 
Well, let's be real here. Your 996 Turbo has its own share of problems, hasn't it? The Mezger is more reliable in theory, sure. But these engines are not going to last forever either and these are fairly old cars now. They must be getting long in the tooth. Then there's potential turbocharger failure and the old rear spoiler thing...I'd reckon that in the long run, running costs on the Turbo will dwarf a potential engine rebuild on the 997 - but that's just my two cents. Turbos will/might also start appreciating at some point (at least sooner than a 997, if that ever happens), so maybe it balances out.Dr Jezz said:
Got to give you kudos for such a fair representation of your experiences (notwithstanding the 06 IMS failure Ronnie Middlemis reported in this thread), and you are also, ironically, I think the only person to mention the RMS leak in this thread. That seems to have slipped by. Appreciate your thoughts.
I'd be more than willing to stand corrected if provided with actual documented evidence of the post 06 failure. Hearsay doesn't cut it. I'm not trying to be an ass about this, just very curious!RichwiththeS2000 said:
I think there's a lot of people, myself included, who would be happy to stomach the normal "Porsche bills". Normal running/maintenance costs on a Carrera are perfectly reasonable.
You're underestimating the running costs on an aging German sports car. These cars are always going to cost you. Take a look at my other post. RichwiththeS2000 said:
That's not acceptable to many folk and I think Porsche have done themselves a disservice because of this.
Have they? Really? I'm pretty sure most people and potential buyers have never heard of this issue or rightly believe it not to be serious. If they did, the cars would be a lot cheaper than they are.RichwiththeS2000 said:
I'll just wait until I can buy a brand new one with a fat warranty ;-)
The money wasted in depreciation on a new 911 in the first year alone will pay for an engine replacement on the arguably nicer 997 (I'll admit to being biased) J4CKO said:
I think the IMS thing is perhaps over stated, however it does make me wonder how many on the secondhand market are for sale due to impending problems ?
I would reckon very, very few. These issues usually do not announce themselves very obviously, so the previous owner may not know this is about to happen. Some engines might use more oil (though many 997s use plenty of oil in my experience), then there's the supposed smoke thing, but as far as I've heard, if they go, they just go. Obvious signs of engine failure (noises, smoke) would, of course, be apparent to anyone on a test drive.anonymous said:
[redacted]
The bearing failed at 143,000 miles. I'd see that as a testament to the engine's reliability I doubt many modern German cars live to see that mileage without a rebuild - many will never see this mileage in any event, Porsches especially.
I don't think you can really fault the engine design for a failure at this mileage. The vast majority of air-cooled 911 with that mileages have also had at least one rebuild - so much for the myth of air-cooled reliability. I shudder whenever I see posts re the running costs of these cars, especially 964s with their myriad of other issues.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
As I've mentioned before, oil consumption is a tricky thing with the 997 (or any 911). Some use more, some don't use any at all. I've obviously had the RMS leak that contributed to my car's oil loss. I had to get the bores scoped to get the OPC warranty and all was dandy, oil consumption is still fairly high though. I usually have to refill a bit every few months (I keep track of how much exactly, but I'm not home right now). Since the car is under warranty now and will be into 2017, I've already presented this to my OPC as oil consumption would seem to me to be on the high side - but I was assured that this was well within tolerance and to be expected. Elevated rates of oil consumption therefore do not necessarily point to a shot engine. Edited by freeman2344 on Tuesday 1st September 22:11
anonymous said:
[redacted]
No need to get hostile mate Alright, it happened. Point taken. But in all honesty, a failure at that mileage doesn't really count, in my mind, as any number of things might have killed the engine anyway.
As to the elevated oil consumption: it's not like this is a super exact science. Oil consumption fluctuates due to any number of factors. Judging what can be considered "elevated" might be very hard to do, unless the consumption rises to extreme rates. In any case, I've never heard of an owner predicting an impending bore scoring failure on the grounds of increased oil consumption and I don't think the scenario you described earlier is very likely to happen...
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