Are matrix signs deliberately useless?
Discussion
motco said:
You find it acceptable that millions of pounds a year are spent on unnecessary litter collection rather than pot hole filling or people have to stand by high speed roads to collect other peoples sh!te ?https://www.gov.uk/government/news/6-million-cost-...
andyhaase1 said:
"caution, animals in road"
I must have seen this a dozen times over the years, I have yet to see one yet!
Ahh the joys of a well mmeaning concerned member of the public seeing a dog,deer, badger, insert animal here crossing the road so the signals go on until it is confirmed clear I must have seen this a dozen times over the years, I have yet to see one yet!
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 1st September 19:18
speedyguy said:
motco said:
You find it acceptable that millions of pounds a year are spent on unnecessary litter collection rather than pot hole filling or people have to stand by high speed roads to collect other peoples sh!te ?OK, I'll go through this sign setting again for you all.
Message signs are set by 3 different methods. Automatically, By the National control centre, or by Regional control rooms.
AUTO SETTINGS:
MIDAS (Go Google it) Motorway Incident Detection And Signalling.
These are wire loops embedded into the road surface that sense, A) the average speed of traffic crossing over them,and the system records the average speed / hour/ day /week.
B) the number of vehicle into 3 different categories, (1) small, ie. car size. (2) Medium, ie large van or small truck. (3) Large, ie; HGV, coach etc. The system records these number similar to above, hour/ day/ week.
The system rechecks each MIDAS loop approx every 4 minutes, and there's been a change it will alter the signal setting.
MIDAS sets speeds and the message "QUEUE CAUTION" "QUEUE AFTER JUNCT" "QUEUE ON SLIPROAD" In fact anything to do with "QUEUE"
It will reduce the speeds down to 50 / 40 mph usually (There is an exception when it may go to 30mph where there are mandatory speed limits in place (Not smart motorway limits) ie, some roadworks, or tight bends.
If when the system checks that MIDAS loop, it finds that the traffic has been passing faster than the posted speed (REMEMBER, THIS IS NOT MANAGED MOTORWAYS WITH MANDATORY SPEED LIMITS!) the system will either lift the speeds, or clear them. (how it works in Man/motorways, I don't know as we don't have them - yet!)
"10 MILES / 10 MINUTES" Type of message. (I hate these! but generally Joe Public like them )
Again this is an automated setting, at strategic points there are special cameras, similar to the ANPR cameras, these read number plates & remember the last 3 letters of the number plates of a group of vehicles, when the majority of the numberplates pass the next strategic point, the system works out the average speed, then posts it up as a message. It will NEVER post up a time that would be less than the time to run at 70 mph. There is obviously a delay in the vehicles getting from A - B, so if something happens mid-way that stops / slows traffic, the message can be wrong until it realises that the batch of numberplates hasn't passed.
WEATHER; FOG / WINDS.
The Majority of these messages are also automatically set by sensors. I can't remember the last time that manually set them.
STRATEGIC MESSAGES / CAMPAIGN MESSAGES.
These are set by the National Control Centre.
STRATEGIC MESSAGES: These seam to boil the piss out of you guys. These are the messages that say "M1 closed at J32" or "A5300 closed after M62" etc.
These are messages set because there is some sort of closure; Incident/roadworks etc where a road is closed for more then 15 mins for some reason or other. These are set by either knowing how long it's going to be closed (roadworks) or best guess if it's an incident. Depending on how long the road is anticipated to be closed for, the signs are set outwards from the location at 60 miles for each hour anticipated. This gives the long distance travellers the option to find an alternative route. YOU may not know where the hell the sign means, but the HGV / long distance driver who's needs to use that particular route will.
CAMPAIGN MESSAGES.
You need to know a bit of background first. EVERY job that we get on the motorway, once we've dealt with it, we have to fill out "Closure codes" these are short codes that give specific information about the job without having to read through the whole incident log. ie; V03 = car, V05 = HGV, V11 = trailer, TC1 = RTC no injuries, TC2 = RTC with injuries, plus many more.
There are codes for the type of vehicle, how many lanes were closed, if signals were set, who recovered the vehicle, was it in roadworks, managed motorways, weather conditions, also who was running the scene & for how long, ie; Police / fire / contractor / HA. in fact there is a code for everything!
Now there are backroom staff that shift through these codes to gather information, this tells them where there are hot-spots for all sorts of incidents, ie; where there's a high level of debris jobs, where there's a high level of people running out of fuel, accident black-spots. etc. etc. Lots of information can be gathered from these closure codes that we put in.
From this information, CAMPAIGN MESSAGES are decided upon by the bosses, Where & for how long they'll be shown. These are the "FASTEN YOUR SEATBELT" TAKE CARE TOWING" TAKE YOUR LITTER HOME" "DON'T DRIVE TIRED" "CHECK YOU FUEL" These act as a reminder to people. The closure codes are re-examined to see if the messages have been effective or not.
They will also set information messages for impending big events off the network that could cause congestion that wouldn't normally be there, this gives regular users the chance to either set off earlier and allow for the congestion, or find an alternative route.
REGIONAL CONTROL ROOM SETTINGS (My job)
We set signals / messages for incidents in our region only.
If we get told about an incident that could impede the flow of traffic, we HAVE to set signals!!
That information comes into us from numerous sources, not all of them good!
For MOST jobs we initially set 50's "INCIDENT" in the location passed to us, unless it's confirmed. So there could be nothin g because the location given is crap, or there could be a multiple pile-up, with vehicles on fire & dead bodies, we don't know for sure until it's CONFIRMED (see below)
If the report is for "PEDESTRIANS / ANIMALS / ONCOMING VEHICLE we set the relevant message, not INCIDENT. even though it's not yet confirmed.
Once the incident is confirmed, by either CCTV, or a Police / HATO ? HA contractor, and a definite marker-post location is know, we can alter the signals accordingly, this may mean lane closures, lower speeds, or completely clearing them.
Signals CANNOT be cleared for something that was live-lane, until authorised by either a HATO or police patrol.
Now we get to locations!!!
Drivers contact the authorities in 2 ways, either by the SOS phone (this comes direct to us, so we can ask the relevant questions, and only need to set the signals in a very localised area) or the phone 999. When you phone 999 from you mobile, it goes to the mobile operator possible somewhere not even in England, who then looks at a map of where you phone has pinged the mobile mast, they then put you through to the police force for where that mast is located. (if it's where the boundaries of forces join, could even be the wrong police force) a 999 call taker now picks up your call, takes what-ever information you give them only, most are not motorway savy, so don't ask the right questions. the log gets passed to us electronically and we have to deal with it as best we can with the information passed.
This was a log 2 days ago; "Highway disruption" M6 -nothing else. but they did put the callers phone number on, so we had to call them back to find out what it was and where it was. Often we'll get just a junction number, no direction, is is before or after that junction? so we have to set signals on both c/ways spread in both directions either side of the junction, until we actually found it a few mins later on cctv.
So as a driver, if you're going to call something in, find a Marker-post, they're every 100 yds along the side of the H/S, this is as good as the number on your front door, we can then set signals in the right place, and not spread all over the place.
We have to set the signals in the correct location (from the info given) within 3 minutes of the start of the log ( the system can take 2 minutes to work!) we also have to clear them within 2 minutes of being told to do by the patrol.
There are back-room staff that randomly check logs to see if these figures are being hit, miss a few and it's a meeting without coffee.
If you're still convinced that you can do better, we're advertising for control room operators at the moment, but be quick, they only leave the ad up for a few days.
https://recruitment.highways.gov.uk/templates/high...
Message signs are set by 3 different methods. Automatically, By the National control centre, or by Regional control rooms.
AUTO SETTINGS:
MIDAS (Go Google it) Motorway Incident Detection And Signalling.
These are wire loops embedded into the road surface that sense, A) the average speed of traffic crossing over them,and the system records the average speed / hour/ day /week.
B) the number of vehicle into 3 different categories, (1) small, ie. car size. (2) Medium, ie large van or small truck. (3) Large, ie; HGV, coach etc. The system records these number similar to above, hour/ day/ week.
The system rechecks each MIDAS loop approx every 4 minutes, and there's been a change it will alter the signal setting.
MIDAS sets speeds and the message "QUEUE CAUTION" "QUEUE AFTER JUNCT" "QUEUE ON SLIPROAD" In fact anything to do with "QUEUE"
It will reduce the speeds down to 50 / 40 mph usually (There is an exception when it may go to 30mph where there are mandatory speed limits in place (Not smart motorway limits) ie, some roadworks, or tight bends.
If when the system checks that MIDAS loop, it finds that the traffic has been passing faster than the posted speed (REMEMBER, THIS IS NOT MANAGED MOTORWAYS WITH MANDATORY SPEED LIMITS!) the system will either lift the speeds, or clear them. (how it works in Man/motorways, I don't know as we don't have them - yet!)
"10 MILES / 10 MINUTES" Type of message. (I hate these! but generally Joe Public like them )
Again this is an automated setting, at strategic points there are special cameras, similar to the ANPR cameras, these read number plates & remember the last 3 letters of the number plates of a group of vehicles, when the majority of the numberplates pass the next strategic point, the system works out the average speed, then posts it up as a message. It will NEVER post up a time that would be less than the time to run at 70 mph. There is obviously a delay in the vehicles getting from A - B, so if something happens mid-way that stops / slows traffic, the message can be wrong until it realises that the batch of numberplates hasn't passed.
WEATHER; FOG / WINDS.
The Majority of these messages are also automatically set by sensors. I can't remember the last time that manually set them.
STRATEGIC MESSAGES / CAMPAIGN MESSAGES.
These are set by the National Control Centre.
STRATEGIC MESSAGES: These seam to boil the piss out of you guys. These are the messages that say "M1 closed at J32" or "A5300 closed after M62" etc.
These are messages set because there is some sort of closure; Incident/roadworks etc where a road is closed for more then 15 mins for some reason or other. These are set by either knowing how long it's going to be closed (roadworks) or best guess if it's an incident. Depending on how long the road is anticipated to be closed for, the signs are set outwards from the location at 60 miles for each hour anticipated. This gives the long distance travellers the option to find an alternative route. YOU may not know where the hell the sign means, but the HGV / long distance driver who's needs to use that particular route will.
CAMPAIGN MESSAGES.
You need to know a bit of background first. EVERY job that we get on the motorway, once we've dealt with it, we have to fill out "Closure codes" these are short codes that give specific information about the job without having to read through the whole incident log. ie; V03 = car, V05 = HGV, V11 = trailer, TC1 = RTC no injuries, TC2 = RTC with injuries, plus many more.
There are codes for the type of vehicle, how many lanes were closed, if signals were set, who recovered the vehicle, was it in roadworks, managed motorways, weather conditions, also who was running the scene & for how long, ie; Police / fire / contractor / HA. in fact there is a code for everything!
Now there are backroom staff that shift through these codes to gather information, this tells them where there are hot-spots for all sorts of incidents, ie; where there's a high level of debris jobs, where there's a high level of people running out of fuel, accident black-spots. etc. etc. Lots of information can be gathered from these closure codes that we put in.
From this information, CAMPAIGN MESSAGES are decided upon by the bosses, Where & for how long they'll be shown. These are the "FASTEN YOUR SEATBELT" TAKE CARE TOWING" TAKE YOUR LITTER HOME" "DON'T DRIVE TIRED" "CHECK YOU FUEL" These act as a reminder to people. The closure codes are re-examined to see if the messages have been effective or not.
They will also set information messages for impending big events off the network that could cause congestion that wouldn't normally be there, this gives regular users the chance to either set off earlier and allow for the congestion, or find an alternative route.
REGIONAL CONTROL ROOM SETTINGS (My job)
We set signals / messages for incidents in our region only.
If we get told about an incident that could impede the flow of traffic, we HAVE to set signals!!
That information comes into us from numerous sources, not all of them good!
For MOST jobs we initially set 50's "INCIDENT" in the location passed to us, unless it's confirmed. So there could be nothin g because the location given is crap, or there could be a multiple pile-up, with vehicles on fire & dead bodies, we don't know for sure until it's CONFIRMED (see below)
If the report is for "PEDESTRIANS / ANIMALS / ONCOMING VEHICLE we set the relevant message, not INCIDENT. even though it's not yet confirmed.
Once the incident is confirmed, by either CCTV, or a Police / HATO ? HA contractor, and a definite marker-post location is know, we can alter the signals accordingly, this may mean lane closures, lower speeds, or completely clearing them.
Signals CANNOT be cleared for something that was live-lane, until authorised by either a HATO or police patrol.
Now we get to locations!!!
Drivers contact the authorities in 2 ways, either by the SOS phone (this comes direct to us, so we can ask the relevant questions, and only need to set the signals in a very localised area) or the phone 999. When you phone 999 from you mobile, it goes to the mobile operator possible somewhere not even in England, who then looks at a map of where you phone has pinged the mobile mast, they then put you through to the police force for where that mast is located. (if it's where the boundaries of forces join, could even be the wrong police force) a 999 call taker now picks up your call, takes what-ever information you give them only, most are not motorway savy, so don't ask the right questions. the log gets passed to us electronically and we have to deal with it as best we can with the information passed.
This was a log 2 days ago; "Highway disruption" M6 -nothing else. but they did put the callers phone number on, so we had to call them back to find out what it was and where it was. Often we'll get just a junction number, no direction, is is before or after that junction? so we have to set signals on both c/ways spread in both directions either side of the junction, until we actually found it a few mins later on cctv.
So as a driver, if you're going to call something in, find a Marker-post, they're every 100 yds along the side of the H/S, this is as good as the number on your front door, we can then set signals in the right place, and not spread all over the place.
We have to set the signals in the correct location (from the info given) within 3 minutes of the start of the log ( the system can take 2 minutes to work!) we also have to clear them within 2 minutes of being told to do by the patrol.
There are back-room staff that randomly check logs to see if these figures are being hit, miss a few and it's a meeting without coffee.
If you're still convinced that you can do better, we're advertising for control room operators at the moment, but be quick, they only leave the ad up for a few days.
https://recruitment.highways.gov.uk/templates/high...
Edited by Gafferjim on Wednesday 2nd September 09:51
Edited by Gafferjim on Wednesday 2nd September 09:56
thebraketester said:
^^ Can i ask you a question please. When you send messages to boards, how to they get there? Is it all hardwired or is it over a "mobile signal" ?
fibre optic, I think. I know we have problems when the scrots go stealing cable, but they probably think it's copper coredEdited by Gafferjim on Wednesday 2nd September 09:57
Gafferjim said:
If you're still convinced that you can do better, we're advertising for control room operators at the moment, but be quick, they only leave the ad up for a few days.
https://recruitment.highways.gov.uk/templates/high...
Thanks Jim https://recruitment.highways.gov.uk/templates/high...
I'm quite tempted by Reward Specialist
https://recruitment.highways.gov.uk//templates/hig...
The salary looks pretty good and if that means an occasional trip to the the local purveyor of pastries, I cant see too many downsides
Edited by saaby93 on Wednesday 2nd September 09:51
saaby93 said:
Thanks Jim
I'm quite tempted by Reward Specialist
https://recruitment.highways.gov.uk//templates/hig...
The salary looks pretty good and if that means an occasional trip to the the local purveyor of pastries, I cant see too many downsides
Well be bloody quick and get the job, then give me a pay rise so it enhances my pension (I retire next year)I'm quite tempted by Reward Specialist
https://recruitment.highways.gov.uk//templates/hig...
The salary looks pretty good and if that means an occasional trip to the the local purveyor of pastries, I cant see too many downsides
Gafferjim said:
thebraketester said:
^^ Can i ask you a question please. When you send messages to boards, how to they get there? Is it all hardwired or is it over a "mobile signal" ?
fibre optic, I think. I know we have problems when the scots go stealing cable, but they probably think it's copper coredfunkyrobot said:
Was feeling a bit under the weather when I passed one the other day. The sign stated 'congestion'. I wondered how they knew.
We used to sign for congestion, all over the place if we saw it on the cameras. in fact there used to be one operator who's only job was to set & alter the signs for congestion during rush hours. That's all been stopped now, as "Normal" congestion, ie. the stuff that happens every working day, is no longer signed for, only ABNORMAL congestion caused by an incident is now signed for, usually by the NTICC.
I share in the frustration of many PHers when faced with unhelpful or mysterious matrix info, all offered with the best of intentions I'm sure...on a parallel but O/T note, it can be equally unhelpful when you're in an unfamiliar town and the local traffic info bulletin cuts in to tell you that there are long delays at Flibbet's Gibbet. Where the hooking fell is that then?! Non-locals do get to drive around towns after all.
turbobloke said:
I share in the frustration of many PHers when faced with unhelpful or mysterious matrix info, all offered with the best of intentions I'm sure...on a parallel but O/T note, it can be equally unhelpful when you're in an unfamiliar town and the local traffic info bulletin cuts in to tell you that there are long delays at Flibbet's Gibbet. Where the hooking fell is that then?!
Whoa! Don't blame us for something off the network!But look at it this way, That message would be understood by the locals who use that route to go shopping, taking their fat little off-spring to school etc. so they can make alternative arrangements, thereby reducing the amount of traffic on that route should it actually be part of where you're heading but you don't know.
Gafferjim said:
turbobloke said:
I share in the frustration of many PHers when faced with unhelpful or mysterious matrix info, all offered with the best of intentions I'm sure...on a parallel but O/T note, it can be equally unhelpful when you're in an unfamiliar town and the local traffic info bulletin cuts in to tell you that there are long delays at Flibbet's Gibbet. Where the hooking fell is that then?!
Whoa! Don't blame us for something off the network!But look at it this way, That message would be understood by the locals who use that route to go shopping, taking their fat little off-spring to school etc. so they can make alternative arrangements, thereby reducing the amount of traffic on that route should it actually be part of where you're heading but you don't know.
Not blaming anyone - and not convinced
but iswym.Those bulletins cut in on a lot of people and the whole audience should be kept in mind surely so that the messages are clear.
Anyway...back to the matrices.
Thanks for that expanation, gafferjim, it explained a lot of it very well so now can you get them to drop the ridiculous term 'smart' and go back to 'managed' as it obviously depends on the skill and judgement of people who have to make snap decisions on limited information rather than computer algorithms which are anything but 'smart'
so now can you get them to drop the ridiculous term 'smart' and go back to 'managed' as it obviously depends on the skill and judgement of people who have to make snap decisions on limited information rather than computer algorithms which are anything but 'smart'Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff