Why are people buying expensive diesels?
Discussion
I agree entirely with the OP's sentiment, it utterly baffles me why anyone buys an expensive new diesel car (that isn't a large 4x4). Cheap diesels for those that require a new car but have limited budgets certainly make sense but a diesel £70k Porsche is nonsensical.
4x4s are the exception to the rule as I think they work best with diesel engines, off-roading requires a lot of grunting away at tickover revs and making a petrol engine large enough to provide the same <2000rpm torque as a powerful diesel makes the resulting fuel economy spectacularly terrible.
I have a 2007 Audi A6 4.2FSI petrol as my daily, they are like hens teeth. Searching Autotrader for A6s up to 10 years old currently shows 1460 diesels and 42 petrols (2.8% of the total
), 1 of which is a V8 (the older indirect injection one and it's broken). Either nobody bought them new or those that did are hanging on to them, I'm certainly planning to hang on to mine as it's superb and practically irreplaceable it seems.
4x4s are the exception to the rule as I think they work best with diesel engines, off-roading requires a lot of grunting away at tickover revs and making a petrol engine large enough to provide the same <2000rpm torque as a powerful diesel makes the resulting fuel economy spectacularly terrible.
I have a 2007 Audi A6 4.2FSI petrol as my daily, they are like hens teeth. Searching Autotrader for A6s up to 10 years old currently shows 1460 diesels and 42 petrols (2.8% of the total
), 1 of which is a V8 (the older indirect injection one and it's broken). Either nobody bought them new or those that did are hanging on to them, I'm certainly planning to hang on to mine as it's superb and practically irreplaceable it seems.marmitemania said:
I keep coming back to this same statement. 'Why do we not have diesel Bentley's and Rolls Royce's' ? I tell you why because no one would buy them. And don't say they are in a different league, we have diesel porsche's and Jaguar's that a not so much cheaper. DIE Diesel DIE !!!!!
'Proud to says I've never had a diesel' etc etc. really!? Has anyone ever said something so dull before? do you tell that to people out on dates as conversation pieces? 
For the record, I choose to drive a diesel as a daily. It gets me to work. I also have a petrol car but it costs a lot more to do a boring commute in. I could afford to commute in an m5 if I wanted but I choose not to as it would be a waste of money.
People want different things. It's not just because they can't afford to run a petrol. Get over it.
Edited by p1stonhead on Tuesday 1st September 14:28
TurboHatchback said:
I agree entirely with the OP's sentiment, it utterly baffles me why anyone buys an expensive new diesel car (that isn't a large 4x4). Cheap diesels for those that require a new car but have limited budgets certainly make sense but a diesel £70k Porsche is nonsensical.
Why? Because someone who can afford to buy/finance a £70k they should have no regard for economics? Or should automatically prefer even inferior petrols engine variants?I think for the high-end diesels at £50k+ it clearly indicates that company directors / managers want the luxury of driving around in a very premium car but without the premium-rate tax bill.
As already established long ago in this thread, very few people buy these cars outright and I suspect those which do are very wealthy (a given), retired and / or very easily convinced into buying a car from dealer stock - ie a diesel - rather than suffer the ballache of sourcing a more suitable petrol alternative. Recall that nugget earlier from a dealer who quoted "these days you really can't tell the difference, sir" [between petrol and diesel].
And let's face it, if the company car costs can be offset and you are doing very well for yourself, why suffer the hefty tax bill just so you can be smug in the knowledge that you have a V8? You're all going to be sat in the same traffic jam anyway, may as well make it both the most comfortable / creature-comfort-filled and cheapest experience possible.
As already established long ago in this thread, very few people buy these cars outright and I suspect those which do are very wealthy (a given), retired and / or very easily convinced into buying a car from dealer stock - ie a diesel - rather than suffer the ballache of sourcing a more suitable petrol alternative. Recall that nugget earlier from a dealer who quoted "these days you really can't tell the difference, sir" [between petrol and diesel].
And let's face it, if the company car costs can be offset and you are doing very well for yourself, why suffer the hefty tax bill just so you can be smug in the knowledge that you have a V8? You're all going to be sat in the same traffic jam anyway, may as well make it both the most comfortable / creature-comfort-filled and cheapest experience possible.
Muzzer79 said:
Why not in £50k+ cars?
A diesel isn't a poorer option in all cases.
It's an engine - it offers decent performance and, to the layman, is almost indistinguishable from a petrol.
Show me a guy with an M6 and I'll show you another guy with a 640d who says it's real-world as quick but does 40mpg.
It may not sound as good or rev as high, but some people don't care about that as much as practical considerations.
I find it odd that so many people perceive diesels as a blatantly worse option when they're simply different, not worse.
You are right. Modern £50k+ diesels offer blinding comparison like-for-like with their petrol counterparts, and for some, drive better.A diesel isn't a poorer option in all cases.
It's an engine - it offers decent performance and, to the layman, is almost indistinguishable from a petrol.
Show me a guy with an M6 and I'll show you another guy with a 640d who says it's real-world as quick but does 40mpg.
It may not sound as good or rev as high, but some people don't care about that as much as practical considerations.
I find it odd that so many people perceive diesels as a blatantly worse option when they're simply different, not worse.
That said, I've got an 640d GC, tweaked to 380bhp, and even I wouldn't say it's as quick as an M6. The difference is that for 90% of the time it's the road that dictates the pace, not the car...and for 99% of the time, the 640d will give as much performance as you would need. It remains down to the chequebook holder to decide whether that last 1% is worth the £20-30k premium. For me it wasn't.
Ares said:
You are right. Modern £50k+ diesels offer blinding comparison like-for-like with their petrol counterparts, and for some, drive better.
That said, I've got an 640d GC, tweaked to 380bhp, and even I wouldn't say it's as quick as an M6. The difference is that for 90% of the time it's the road that dictates the pace, not the car...and for 99% of the time, the 640d will give as much performance as you would need. It remains down to the chequebook holder to decide whether that last 1% is worth the £20-30k premium. For me it wasn't.
This has to be one of the best summaries, much better explained than my attempt !!That said, I've got an 640d GC, tweaked to 380bhp, and even I wouldn't say it's as quick as an M6. The difference is that for 90% of the time it's the road that dictates the pace, not the car...and for 99% of the time, the 640d will give as much performance as you would need. It remains down to the chequebook holder to decide whether that last 1% is worth the £20-30k premium. For me it wasn't.
Phib
matsoc said:
I can't answer on the S6/Bitdi but I drove back to back an M5 and a M550xd estate and there was an hell of difference on the road.
Is one not and estate and 4wd ( with associated weight ?) and one a 2wd saloon, not being funny but they are really not like for like. I suspect the 550d 2wd ( if they make one, not too clued up on five series) would be a bit more comparable.
Having said that I can only compare the Audi's as I Havent driven the BMW's and there may be a massive difference
Phib
Muzzer79 said:
Why not in £50k+ cars?
A diesel isn't a poorer option in all cases.
It's an engine - it offers decent performance and, to the layman, is almost indistinguishable from a petrol.
Show me a guy with an M6 and I'll show you another guy with a 640d who says it's real-world as quick but does 40mpg.
It may not sound as good or rev as high, but some people don't care about that as much as practical considerations.
I find it odd that so many people perceive diesels as a blatantly worse option when they're simply different, not worse.
I think a diesel engine suits some cars like 4x4`s and heavy SUV`s because they don't have any sporting intentions and the low end shove of a diesel helps with the weight, the diesel engines I have experienced have been worse than the petrol equivalent but that`s maybe just because I don't like the noise they make much and the sound of an engine is important to me.A diesel isn't a poorer option in all cases.
It's an engine - it offers decent performance and, to the layman, is almost indistinguishable from a petrol.
Show me a guy with an M6 and I'll show you another guy with a 640d who says it's real-world as quick but does 40mpg.
It may not sound as good or rev as high, but some people don't care about that as much as practical considerations.
I find it odd that so many people perceive diesels as a blatantly worse option when they're simply different, not worse.
I agree that most don't care how an engine sounds or have much interest in cars in general so to them a diesel will tick all the boxes as they are perceived as being the cheaper option to run, I have an old fashioned view that a nice car should have a nice engine and I just don't find diesel engines nice but that's just me.
phib said:
matsoc said:
I can't answer on the S6/Bitdi but I drove back to back an M5 and a M550xd estate and there was an hell of difference on the road.
Is one not and estate and 4wd ( with associated weight ?) and one a 2wd saloon, not being funny but they are really not like for like. I suspect the 550d 2wd ( if they make one, not too clued up on five series) would be a bit more comparable.
Having said that I can only compare the Audi's as I Havent driven the BMW's and there may be a massive difference
Phib
So the difference is quite massive if you ask me between the 2 BMWs but I understand how it can be smaller between the 2 Audis you mentioned.
emicen said:
daemon said:
Cheapest approved used 2013 640i M Sport on Autotrader = £36,450
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
Cheapest approved used 2013 640d M Sport on Autotrader = £32,803
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
The car with 2.5 times the mileage is cheaper. Good lord.http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
Cheapest approved used 2013 640d M Sport on Autotrader = £32,803
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
Silly me
Edited by daemon on Tuesday 1st September 15:48
PTF said:
Neighbour of mine changed her 320i for an A3 1.6 TDI recently.
She does a 3 mile commute into town from our village.
Apparently the BMW was only doing about 20 mpg.
Waiting to see how long the DPF lasts on that A3.
Also, friend of mine has a Focus 1.6 TDCI. Uses it for very short journeys mostly. Engine light came on the other day. We stuck an OBD2 reader onto it and apparently the DPF fluid is empty. He was shocked by this. It's not cheap to get the kit to refill it either!
DPF...fluid? Does it have Urea injection otherwise I really have no idea what you mean. DPFs are run from putting extra fuel down the exhaust to heat the DPF. No other fluids are used.She does a 3 mile commute into town from our village.
Apparently the BMW was only doing about 20 mpg.
Waiting to see how long the DPF lasts on that A3.
Also, friend of mine has a Focus 1.6 TDCI. Uses it for very short journeys mostly. Engine light came on the other day. We stuck an OBD2 reader onto it and apparently the DPF fluid is empty. He was shocked by this. It's not cheap to get the kit to refill it either!
Edited by PTF on Tuesday 1st September 13:04
Muzzer79 said:
Why not in £50k+ cars?
A diesel isn't a poorer option in all cases.
It's an engine - it offers decent performance and, to the layman, is almost indistinguishable from a petrol.
Show me a guy with an M6 and I'll show you another guy with a 640d who says it's real-world as quick but does 40mpg.
It may not sound as good or rev as high, but some people don't care about that as much as practical considerations.
I find it odd that so many people perceive diesels as a blatantly worse option when they're simply different, not worse.
I think its very much the car its fitted in.A diesel isn't a poorer option in all cases.
It's an engine - it offers decent performance and, to the layman, is almost indistinguishable from a petrol.
Show me a guy with an M6 and I'll show you another guy with a 640d who says it's real-world as quick but does 40mpg.
It may not sound as good or rev as high, but some people don't care about that as much as practical considerations.
I find it odd that so many people perceive diesels as a blatantly worse option when they're simply different, not worse.
I'd have no particular issue with an S class diesel or a 5 series diesel, but something like a Porsche i just dont "get" why you'd want a diesel. Its like "i am prepared to pay a huge premium for a Porsche with all its heritage, technology, handling, etc, but can i have it with a diesel engine please?"
Likewise, i'd be a big diesel advocate, but a diesel convertible, for example, just seems wrong.
phib said:
Ares said:
You are right. Modern £50k+ diesels offer blinding comparison like-for-like with their petrol counterparts, and for some, drive better.
That said, I've got an 640d GC, tweaked to 380bhp, and even I wouldn't say it's as quick as an M6. The difference is that for 90% of the time it's the road that dictates the pace, not the car...and for 99% of the time, the 640d will give as much performance as you would need. It remains down to the chequebook holder to decide whether that last 1% is worth the £20-30k premium. For me it wasn't.
This has to be one of the best summaries, much better explained than my attempt !!That said, I've got an 640d GC, tweaked to 380bhp, and even I wouldn't say it's as quick as an M6. The difference is that for 90% of the time it's the road that dictates the pace, not the car...and for 99% of the time, the 640d will give as much performance as you would need. It remains down to the chequebook holder to decide whether that last 1% is worth the £20-30k premium. For me it wasn't.
Phib
A very good summary.
I'm glad that M6s and Cayenne Turbos exist, however as much as I can see the attraction, I can see the stronger case for the diesel too ...... measured against my own criteria and values of course.
daemon said:
I think its very much the car its fitted in.
I'd have no particular issue with an S class diesel or a 5 series diesel, but something like a Porsche i just dont "get" why you'd want a diesel. Its like "i am prepared to pay a huge premium for a Porsche with all its heritage, technology, handling, etc, but can i have it with a diesel engine please?"
Likewise, i'd be a big diesel advocate, but a diesel convertible, for example, just seems wrong.
Diesel in a 911 would be fool, but Panamera, Cayenne and Macan have nothing to do with Porsche heritage or handling so for me it is ok they use a diesel.I'd have no particular issue with an S class diesel or a 5 series diesel, but something like a Porsche i just dont "get" why you'd want a diesel. Its like "i am prepared to pay a huge premium for a Porsche with all its heritage, technology, handling, etc, but can i have it with a diesel engine please?"
Likewise, i'd be a big diesel advocate, but a diesel convertible, for example, just seems wrong.
On the convertible I agree, a diesel convertible is mad, even the wooosh of the petrol turbos disgust me a bit, open top should be petrol and NA if you ask me
Ares said:
TurboHatchback said:
I agree entirely with the OP's sentiment, it utterly baffles me why anyone buys an expensive new diesel car (that isn't a large 4x4). Cheap diesels for those that require a new car but have limited budgets certainly make sense but a diesel £70k Porsche is nonsensical.
Why? Because someone who can afford to buy/finance a £70k they should have no regard for economics? Ares said:
Or should automatically prefer even inferior petrols engine variants?
No, but at that end of the market (and generally) the top performing engine in the range will be petrol, usually with a substantial performance margin over the lesser diesel models as well as all the subjective benefits. I know you bang on that your 640d is the second coming but I simply don't accept that a huge forced induction petrol engine wouldn't be better in every way bar fuel economy and if you're splurging a vast sum on the car itself who cares about that? Obviously second hand the story is very different but the topic is about buying new.Obviously my opinion is in a very small minority based on sales figures but it makes no sense to me.
GroundEffect said:
PTF said:
Neighbour of mine changed her 320i for an A3 1.6 TDI recently.
She does a 3 mile commute into town from our village.
Apparently the BMW was only doing about 20 mpg.
Waiting to see how long the DPF lasts on that A3.
Also, friend of mine has a Focus 1.6 TDCI. Uses it for very short journeys mostly. Engine light came on the other day. We stuck an OBD2 reader onto it and apparently the DPF fluid is empty. He was shocked by this. It's not cheap to get the kit to refill it either!
DPF...fluid? Does it have Urea injection otherwise I really have no idea what you mean. DPFs are run from putting extra fuel down the exhaust to heat the DPF. No other fluids are used.She does a 3 mile commute into town from our village.
Apparently the BMW was only doing about 20 mpg.
Waiting to see how long the DPF lasts on that A3.
Also, friend of mine has a Focus 1.6 TDCI. Uses it for very short journeys mostly. Engine light came on the other day. We stuck an OBD2 reader onto it and apparently the DPF fluid is empty. He was shocked by this. It's not cheap to get the kit to refill it either!
Edited by PTF on Tuesday 1st September 13:04
Some engines (The PSA 1.6 HDI for example, as used in the focus, etc) have a reservior of fluid that is injected into the DPF to lower the temperature at which the particles burn off.
The fluid is supposed to last around 100k miles.
A refill kit is about £300, but that will do a couple of refills. Then there's a procedure to reset the counter, which might be best left to a dealer.
Personally i'd have a simple petrol engine over this nonsense anyday!!
Edited by PTF on Tuesday 1st September 16:10
TurboHatchback said:
Ares said:
TurboHatchback said:
I agree entirely with the OP's sentiment, it utterly baffles me why anyone buys an expensive new diesel car (that isn't a large 4x4). Cheap diesels for those that require a new car but have limited budgets certainly make sense but a diesel £70k Porsche is nonsensical.
Why? Because someone who can afford to buy/finance a £70k they should have no regard for economics? Ares said:
Or should automatically prefer even inferior petrols engine variants?
No, but at that end of the market (and generally) the top performing engine in the range will be petrol, usually with a substantial performance margin over the lesser diesel models as well as all the subjective benefits. I know you bang on that your 640d is the second coming but I simply don't accept that a huge forced induction petrol engine wouldn't be better in every way bar fuel economy and if you're splurging a vast sum on the car itself who cares about that? Obviously second hand the story is very different but the topic is about buying new.Obviously my opinion is in a very small minority based on sales figures but it makes no sense to me.
C.A.R. said:
I think for the high-end diesels at £50k+ it clearly indicates that company directors / managers want the luxury of driving around in a very premium car but without the premium-rate tax bill.
As already established long ago in this thread, very few people buy these cars outright and I suspect those which do are very wealthy (a given), retired and / or very easily convinced into buying a car from dealer stock - ie a diesel - rather than suffer the ballache of sourcing a more suitable petrol alternative. Recall that nugget earlier from a dealer who quoted "these days you really can't tell the difference, sir" [between petrol and diesel].
And let's face it, if the company car costs can be offset and you are doing very well for yourself, why suffer the hefty tax bill just so you can be smug in the knowledge that you have a V8? You're all going to be sat in the same traffic jam anyway, may as well make it both the most comfortable / creature-comfort-filled and cheapest experience possible.
Don't assume it's all about the tax bill.....or that a petrol would be 'more suitable'.As already established long ago in this thread, very few people buy these cars outright and I suspect those which do are very wealthy (a given), retired and / or very easily convinced into buying a car from dealer stock - ie a diesel - rather than suffer the ballache of sourcing a more suitable petrol alternative. Recall that nugget earlier from a dealer who quoted "these days you really can't tell the difference, sir" [between petrol and diesel].
And let's face it, if the company car costs can be offset and you are doing very well for yourself, why suffer the hefty tax bill just so you can be smug in the knowledge that you have a V8? You're all going to be sat in the same traffic jam anyway, may as well make it both the most comfortable / creature-comfort-filled and cheapest experience possible.
I think part of it is down to not wanting to really know how much you are spending on the car - the theoretical mpg and the road tax are the keys. The mpg is visible to you every time you fill the car up, and road tax very visible when you pay it. But depreciation is (even though it is the biggest single cost to most) less "visible" and I suspect people don't like to tot it up
A year ago I went from a diesel Subaru Outback to the 3.0 petrol equivalent. I was surprised how painful it felt paying for a year's road fund. The relatively poor range was irritating - often less than 300 miles whereas the diesel was 470 or thereabouts - and filling a car with fuel is a waste of my like so reducing it is attractive. Its smoothness was remarked on by many passengers, though. It was a bit spoiled by the auto box and for some reason I just grew to hate it... so now in something else
A year ago I went from a diesel Subaru Outback to the 3.0 petrol equivalent. I was surprised how painful it felt paying for a year's road fund. The relatively poor range was irritating - often less than 300 miles whereas the diesel was 470 or thereabouts - and filling a car with fuel is a waste of my like so reducing it is attractive. Its smoothness was remarked on by many passengers, though. It was a bit spoiled by the auto box and for some reason I just grew to hate it... so now in something else
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