Why are people buying expensive diesels?
Discussion
Elysium said:
I agree with this. But that's the reality it. Most people have no idea what a power band is. They go for diesel because of residuals perceived fuel economy and a lazy driving style.
Lazy driving style? Maybe so but when can anyone really get the most out of their car on today's roads anyway? Its no good having an M5 if all you can do is take 1 second to get to 30 or 40mph and then have to drop it into 6th. You guys all red line your V8 petrol cars off the traffic lights only to get caught at the next set?And even on single lane country roads in scotland the limit is 60 right? So why does anyone need to get to 100 in 8 seconds?
NOt that I don't like fast cars, I do, but nobody can really use all that power these days so it doesn't really matter to the argument.
cerb4.5lee said:
Yes I hear what you are saying and I don't think I have owned anything that is highly regarded when it comes to handling though and I have mainly personally been interested in straight line performance hence why I loved my Cerbera so much and my M3 was just too heavy and dull to give much reward in the corners but it was a far better handler than the TVR.
I would like a go in a Porsche as they are recognised as being sweet in terms of handling and I would also fancy a Lotus for similar reasons, my father in law has a 120bhp Caterham and in terms of performance it doesn't set the world alight at all but I loved every minute of driving it for the way it made me feel.
So I do agree that for ultimate thrills power isn't necessary but lightness does seem to be a key ingredient though.
Yes I would love a Lotus or Caterham - but they are a bit hardcore for a daily drive if it is the only car you own. I was toying with swapping my Z for an Exige S 3rd gen in the next year or two. The Z already has two seats, so why not go a bit more hardcore?! I would like a go in a Porsche as they are recognised as being sweet in terms of handling and I would also fancy a Lotus for similar reasons, my father in law has a 120bhp Caterham and in terms of performance it doesn't set the world alight at all but I loved every minute of driving it for the way it made me feel.
So I do agree that for ultimate thrills power isn't necessary but lightness does seem to be a key ingredient though.
It's already a bit boring that after 2-3 seconds of squeezing the accelerator you have to back off... I find it frustrating even over here. I can't open it up much. When you have 120-150 bhp in a light open car like the 7, the engine sounds great & you can really give it the beans & have fun, but for a few more seconds!
danlightbulb said:
Lazy driving style? Maybe so but when can anyone really get the most out of their car on today's roads anyway? Its no good having an M5 if all you can do is take 1 second to get to 30 or 40mph and then have to drop it into 6th. You guys all red line your V8 petrol cars off the traffic lights only to get caught at the next set?
And even on single lane country roads in scotland the limit is 60 right? So why does anyone need to get to 100 in 8 seconds?
NOt that I don't like fast cars, I do, but nobody can really use all that power these days so it doesn't really matter to the argument.
When I had my Z4M and TVR I used them both as a weekend/occasional car so traffic wasn't an issue for me as I just sniffed out the quiet roads I knew and went out and had some fun.And even on single lane country roads in scotland the limit is 60 right? So why does anyone need to get to 100 in 8 seconds?
NOt that I don't like fast cars, I do, but nobody can really use all that power these days so it doesn't really matter to the argument.
I then decided to bin the idea of a weekend motor and got a V8 M3 as my only car as a happy medium but I ended up hating it for the reasons you state and in a daily environment you couldn't use its performance because of the traffic and I had a 106 keep up with me once purely because of all the start/stop traffic.
I just thought what`s the point of running a car with over 400bhp that delivers mpg in the teens when I cant use its performance and for the rest of the time felt like any other 3 series only miles more expensive to run, so I do get what you are saying to be fair.
This is precisely why the rule must be 'go special, or go home!'. Fast but dull cars are pointless. I couldn't give a naff that some diesel Audi will do 100 in 10 seconds, as it won't excite at any speed that you can do on the road (and would be awful on track).
I am saddened at people's experiences of the M3, as that engine won me over completely, but that's different from living with the car day to day. And I completely understand the 'It's a 3 series' point. A sorted one with a gorgeous engine, but still a 3 series when you see it in the morning.
I am saddened at people's experiences of the M3, as that engine won me over completely, but that's different from living with the car day to day. And I completely understand the 'It's a 3 series' point. A sorted one with a gorgeous engine, but still a 3 series when you see it in the morning.
This is precisely why the rule must be 'go special, or go home!'. Fast but dull cars are pointless. I couldn't give a naff that some diesel Audi will do 100 in 10 seconds, as it won't excite at any speed that you can do on the road (and would be awful on track).
I am saddened at people's experiences of the M3, as that engine won me over completely, but that's different from living with the car day to day. And I completely understand the 'It's a 3 series' point. A sorted one with a gorgeous engine, but still a 3 series when you see it in the morning.
I am saddened at people's experiences of the M3, as that engine won me over completely, but that's different from living with the car day to day. And I completely understand the 'It's a 3 series' point. A sorted one with a gorgeous engine, but still a 3 series when you see it in the morning.
cerb4.5lee said:
When I had my Z4M and TVR I used them both as a weekend/occasional car so traffic wasn't an issue for me as I just sniffed out the quiet roads I knew and went out and had some fun.
I then decided to bin the idea of a weekend motor and got a V8 M3 as my only car as a happy medium but I ended up hating it for the reasons you state and in a daily environment you couldn't use its performance because of the traffic and I had a 106 keep up with me once purely because of all the start/stop traffic.
I just thought what`s the point of running a car with over 400bhp that delivers mpg in the teens when I cant use its performance and for the rest of the time felt like any other 3 series only miles more expensive to run, so I do get what you are saying to be fair.
I think you would absolutely love a fast and well sorted 1MI then decided to bin the idea of a weekend motor and got a V8 M3 as my only car as a happy medium but I ended up hating it for the reasons you state and in a daily environment you couldn't use its performance because of the traffic and I had a 106 keep up with me once purely because of all the start/stop traffic.
I just thought what`s the point of running a car with over 400bhp that delivers mpg in the teens when I cant use its performance and for the rest of the time felt like any other 3 series only miles more expensive to run, so I do get what you are saying to be fair.
gizlaroc said:
It was a genuine question, would he be happy with the 335d as his one car? That to me really tells me if someone loves their car.
Well I don't think it is a genuine question, and if it is he's answered it pretty much anyway.I would hate to have one car, and I'm pretty sure all those who do have more than one car would also hate to only have one car too.
But also this is the way these threads always go - whenever someone says, "you know what, I've got a diesel, and it does xyz which I think is great, and I really like the car" the immediate response is so often along the lines of "yeahbutyeahbutyeahbut if-if-if-if whatifwhatifwhatif becauseF1."
Look, he's told you that he's (very) happy with the car. And that's it. He's explained his position and that's it.
As I said before, it never seems to go the other way - if someone says he loves his Caterham (for instance), us diesel guys don't immediately respond with pointing out the shortcomings re mpg and lack of space etc. We know he loves his Caterham, we know what it's all about, and that's it.
And whenever a diesel chap says he loves xy or z about his car someone always responds with a graph to prove him wrong
.So as I say, 12 years in I've been here (which is a tad embarrassing
) and the diesel threads are still absolutely exactly the same - graphs, torque, gearing, power torque, graphs and more graphs - just because someone said what he liked about his car.And I have to say, when someone says what he likes about his car, it shouldn't immediately be responded to imo by asking "yeahbut what if you could only have one car?" - because it's not relevant.
stuart-b said:
I think you would absolutely love a fast and well sorted 1M
When I was looking at purchasing the M3 I really wanted a 1M and even joked to the salesman about it but my budget was £30k and the 1M was fetching at the time around £38k so out of reach and I do agree and think a 1M would be a good choice. stuart-b said:
Thanks.
heebeegeetee said:
As I said before, it never seems to go the other way
What like the many diesel owners who claim that petrol cars cannot possibly match the torque of their mighty TDI's you mean?heebeegeetee said:
And whenever a diesel chap says he loves xy or z about his car someone always responds with a graph to prove him wrong .
Nope. The graph was not "because he liked it" it was for the eternal "but it has a massive powerband". No it doesn't, it's narrow just like *every* *single* diesel. .ORD said:
I am saddened at people's experiences of the M3, as that engine won me over completely, but that's different from living with the car day to day. And I completely understand the 'It's a 3 series' point. A sorted one with a gorgeous engine, but still a 3 series when you see it in the morning.
I did respect the engine to be fair but would have loved to have experienced it in something lighter and more focussed for sure, the still a 3 series part you mention always niggled me and it just personally took any specialness away for me...I appreciate I am in the minority though as the car is very highly regarded by many. When I opened the garage and saw the M3 it never really did much for me but I blame having a TVR for that though!
I am on record many times saying the M3 is just a 3 series with a lovely engine in it and I do stand by that.
gizlaroc said:
Devil2575 said:
Please explain how more power is superior to more torque?
...given that power is simply torqe x engine speed.
What he is saying is, as nice as torque is, it is power that is the only figure that matters. ...given that power is simply torqe x engine speed.
700nm of torque on a car is brilliant, but not when you only have 2500rpm it's not.
It isn't rocket science.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.” ― Winston Churchill
Not wanting to state the obvious but torque and rpm are what give you the "go". You need both I.e power. You need to look at the entire system including gear ratios. For cars that can't rev very highly or only have a narrow band of torque as typically found with a diesel engine the gears tend to be considerably longer than a petrol engine.
cerb4.5lee said:
ORD said:
I am saddened at people's experiences of the M3, as that engine won me over completely, but that's different from living with the car day to day. And I completely understand the 'It's a 3 series' point. A sorted one with a gorgeous engine, but still a 3 series when you see it in the morning.
I did respect the engine to be fair but would have loved to have experienced it in something lighter and more focussed for sure, the still a 3 series part you mention always niggled me and it just personally took any specialness away for me...I appreciate I am in the minority though as the car is very highly regarded by many. When I opened the garage and saw the M3 it never really did much for me but I blame having a TVR for that though!
I am on record many times saying the M3 is just a 3 series with a lovely engine in it and I do stand by that.
My CP DCT car had a fantastic drive train it was just so biddable and willing to play even my ham fists could get it sideways.
Wills2 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
ORD said:
I am saddened at people's experiences of the M3, as that engine won me over completely, but that's different from living with the car day to day. And I completely understand the 'It's a 3 series' point. A sorted one with a gorgeous engine, but still a 3 series when you see it in the morning.
I did respect the engine to be fair but would have loved to have experienced it in something lighter and more focussed for sure, the still a 3 series part you mention always niggled me and it just personally took any specialness away for me...I appreciate I am in the minority though as the car is very highly regarded by many. When I opened the garage and saw the M3 it never really did much for me but I blame having a TVR for that though!
I am on record many times saying the M3 is just a 3 series with a lovely engine in it and I do stand by that.
My CP DCT car had a fantastic drive train it was just so biddable and willing to play even my ham fists could get it sideways.
cerb4.5lee said:
Wills2 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
ORD said:
I am saddened at people's experiences of the M3, as that engine won me over completely, but that's different from living with the car day to day. And I completely understand the 'It's a 3 series' point. A sorted one with a gorgeous engine, but still a 3 series when you see it in the morning.
I did respect the engine to be fair but would have loved to have experienced it in something lighter and more focussed for sure, the still a 3 series part you mention always niggled me and it just personally took any specialness away for me...I appreciate I am in the minority though as the car is very highly regarded by many. When I opened the garage and saw the M3 it never really did much for me but I blame having a TVR for that though!
I am on record many times saying the M3 is just a 3 series with a lovely engine in it and I do stand by that.
My CP DCT car had a fantastic drive train it was just so biddable and willing to play even my ham fists could get it sideways.
ORD said:
In other words, a fast Audi drives like a fast Audi I cant say I see the point in fast but dull cars, but each to his own.
It's certainly not a dull car. The character is there throughout. I cant say I see the point in fast but dull cars, but each to his own.The diff does extraordinary things in combination with Quattro system which I am very grateful for on a cold dark winters night.
For me it is part of a 2 car strategy. This is an exiting but safe family cruiser and I plan to run it alongside a weekend toy.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/22...
Last week the Guardian reported that nine out of 10 new diesel cars break EU limits on nitrogen oxides – not by a little, but by an average of sevenfold. Every manufacturer whose emissions were tested had cars in breach of the legal limit.
The fraud involves the detection of nitrogen oxides (NOx), of which diesel engines are the major source in many places. This month, for the first time in our history, the UK government estimated the impact that NOx emissions have on public health, and discovered that they are likely almost to double the number of deaths from air pollution, adding 23,500 to the 29,000 attributed to particulates (tiny particles of soot).
Last week the Guardian reported that nine out of 10 new diesel cars break EU limits on nitrogen oxides – not by a little, but by an average of sevenfold. Every manufacturer whose emissions were tested had cars in breach of the legal limit.
The fraud involves the detection of nitrogen oxides (NOx), of which diesel engines are the major source in many places. This month, for the first time in our history, the UK government estimated the impact that NOx emissions have on public health, and discovered that they are likely almost to double the number of deaths from air pollution, adding 23,500 to the 29,000 attributed to particulates (tiny particles of soot).
stuart-b said:
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/22...
Last week the Guardian reported that nine out of 10 new diesel cars break EU limits on nitrogen oxides – not by a little, but by an average of sevenfold. Every manufacturer whose emissions were tested had cars in breach of the legal limit.
The fraud involves the detection of nitrogen oxides (NOx), of which diesel engines are the major source in many places. This month, for the first time in our history, the UK government estimated the impact that NOx emissions have on public health, and discovered that they are likely almost to double the number of deaths from air pollution, adding 23,500 to the 29,000 attributed to particulates (tiny particles of soot).
Having avoided Diesel engines cars for 10 years I finally succumbed very recently.Last week the Guardian reported that nine out of 10 new diesel cars break EU limits on nitrogen oxides – not by a little, but by an average of sevenfold. Every manufacturer whose emissions were tested had cars in breach of the legal limit.
The fraud involves the detection of nitrogen oxides (NOx), of which diesel engines are the major source in many places. This month, for the first time in our history, the UK government estimated the impact that NOx emissions have on public health, and discovered that they are likely almost to double the number of deaths from air pollution, adding 23,500 to the 29,000 attributed to particulates (tiny particles of soot).
Whilst it is hugely annoying to find that I may have been mislead regarding NOX emissions I feel obliged to point out that you have linked to an article authored by George Monbiot.
Unfortunately this means that I have to conclude that it is a massive pile of complete and utter b
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