Why are people buying expensive diesels?
Discussion
Condi said:
Not at all, real world NOx emissions are down about 40%.
http://www.theicct.org/news/press-release-new-icct...
Hmm, interesting, Nox is actually down 40% over the period of time mentioned. I understand that that is a rate of decline that everyone would prefer to see higher, but I also think that it doesn't quite tally with what the media is telling us - from the media I was getting the impression that nox emissions were increasing.http://www.theicct.org/news/press-release-new-icct...
Then also, from that same site, is this saying there is a similar situation going on with co2? http://www.theicct.org/blogs/staff/trend-that-cant...
ORD said:
All fair points, except that I would add 'Yet' to your point about Euro 6 diesels. The real world tests show that diesels basically haven't got cleaner for 15 years, don't they? I would be highly sceptical that there has been a step change now.
No. There are lots of people doing tests at the moment and all they show is that there are large differences between actual emissions on the road and the stated NOX emissions from the 'factory condition' tests.There is no point in comparing current real world emissions with test emissions from 10 years ago. It's not like for like.
NOX is down as has been posted previously. The issue at the moment is the validity and relevance of the official testing regime. The output of these tests is not helpful as the figures have no correlation with actual emissions and in VWs case they are even less relevant, because they designed their software to put the car in a special 'test mode' to get the best result possible.
I suspect that we will see significant changes in the testing regime in response to current issues.
The Euro6 engines with adblue are working well so far as I can see and the fuel consumption is incredible. 60mpg is very achievable in a 2015 A6 for example.
heebeegeetee said:
Then also, from that same site, is this saying there is a similar situation going on with co2? http://www.theicct.org/blogs/staff/trend-that-cant...
All it says is that the car companies are becoming better at tuning their cars to achieve low emissions during a test program they can produce a map for. I stand by my opinion that all of this is a storm in a teacup, and much bigger questions will be asked of the testing regime which bears no resemblance to the real world, than VW.
The other thing which strikes me as odd, is that the cars in question are not massively more economical, or massively more powerful than any other brands. So if they needed to fudge the test, it suggest other manufactures are at least being economic with some truths, even if they are not using cheat devices to do so. How can VW not produce an engine which sticks within the rules, but seemingly everyone else can. Something doesnt quite add up.
Condi said:
All it says is that the car companies are becoming better at tuning their cars to achieve low emissions during a test program they can produce a map for.
I stand by my opinion that all of this is a storm in a teacup, and much bigger questions will be asked of the testing regime which bears no resemblance to the real world, than VW.
The other thing which strikes me as odd, is that the cars in question are not massively more economical, or massively more powerful than any other brands. So if they needed to fudge the test, it suggest other manufactures are at least being economic with some truths, even if they are not using cheat devices to do so. How can VW not produce an engine which sticks within the rules, but seemingly everyone else can. Something doesnt quite add up.
Because some have the sense to sell petrol hybrids, and some have the sense to sell small capacity turbo petrols. Both of which will give good test results and plenty of power without anyone having to cheat at anything.I stand by my opinion that all of this is a storm in a teacup, and much bigger questions will be asked of the testing regime which bears no resemblance to the real world, than VW.
The other thing which strikes me as odd, is that the cars in question are not massively more economical, or massively more powerful than any other brands. So if they needed to fudge the test, it suggest other manufactures are at least being economic with some truths, even if they are not using cheat devices to do so. How can VW not produce an engine which sticks within the rules, but seemingly everyone else can. Something doesnt quite add up.
ZX10R NIN said:
IN answer to your question I bought them because for my commute (when I have to use the car) or when I'm doing a long journey, then 18mpg/25mpg doesn't work for me so I have a diesel.
So VUB would you buy a diesel?
Been on this endless thread already, but then it is all about diesel so it will go on a lot further. Yes, I've got a 335d and an M3 for what sounds like the same reasons as yours. Long and tedious motorway stuff, local driving, it's the diesel. Fun stuff, the M3. But I sense you have a motorcycle as well?So VUB would you buy a diesel?
jamieduff1981 said:
matsoc said:
There is a lot of people claiming low consumption with petrol and I am not saying it is impossible, especially with the engines built during the last years, but personally I don't see the point of driving an expensive petrol engined car trying to achieve the best possible consumption.
I must be doing something wrong. I'm not claiming to be a WRC driver but I'm a pretty enthusiastic driver yet I simply can't get through the amount of petrol some people claim to.How the hell can people use so much? I rev mine. I use a lot of throttle opening. I accelerate hard often and overtake several times per day (single carriageway) and generally have lots of need to speed up and slow down. I.e. the worst possible way to save fuel.
I just don't care about fuel consumption. I use it and I fill it up again. Rinse and repeat.
I've yet to achieve the sort of horrendous averages diesel owners think petrol cars manage, and that's with some pretty big engines too, not puny little 2.nobodycares 4-pots. You must all drive around everywhere with the hand brake on and stuck in 2nd gear.
To be fair when I have been living in Stuttgart my consumption were not significantly better despite reduced traffic but I did exploit regularly the unrestricted autobahn stretch on the way to work.
Condi said:
The other thing which strikes me as odd, is that the cars in question are not massively more economical, or massively more powerful than any other brands. So if they needed to fudge the test, it suggest other manufactures are at least being economic with some truths, even if they are not using cheat devices to do so. How can VW not produce an engine which sticks within the rules, but seemingly everyone else can. Something doesnt quite add up.
I thought VW was the only manufacturer selling diesel cars without urea injection in the USA. I am not aware that they were in breach of European regulations. This suggests that their tech is at the same level as the rest of the industry but that they alone thought they could get away with selling Euro style engines in America as a result of their defeat mechanism. VUB said:
Anyway, why are people buying expensive diesels?
I think I gave my reasons about 20 pages ago. My current 3.0 litre turbo diesel has similar mid range performance to the 5.5 litre petrol V8 it replaced, is similarly refined except from rest when cold, goes further on a tank of fuel, and is more economical in fuel and tax costs. Oh, and there was no petrol version offered of the car I wanted.waremark said:
VUB said:
Anyway, why are people buying expensive diesels?
I think I gave my reasons about 20 pages ago. My current 3.0 litre turbo diesel has similar mid range performance to the 5.5 litre petrol V8 it replaced, is similarly refined except from rest when cold, goes further on a tank of fuel, and is more economical in fuel and tax costs. Oh, and there was no petrol version offered of the car I wanted.If we have a sane regime at some point, someone in your position would plump for the V8
ORD said:
All perfectly good and rational reasons. You basically responded rationally to the market created by government policy on diesel.
If we have a sane regime at some point, someone in your position would plump for the V8
Sorry, but this isn't going to happen. The UK govt position on CO2 emissions is part of a global movement that isn't going to change. If we have a sane regime at some point, someone in your position would plump for the V8
When the bankers start to see environmental issues as the greatest threat to the global financial system I think it is fair to say that the paradigm has shifted:
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Pages/...
You are facing the end of the internal combustion engine as a means of transport full stop. Getting hung up about petrol vs diesel is like arguing about the colour of the deck chairs on the titanic.
Elysium said:
ORD said:
All perfectly good and rational reasons. You basically responded rationally to the market created by government policy on diesel.
If we have a sane regime at some point, someone in your position would plump for the V8
Sorry, but this isn't going to happen. The UK govt position on CO2 emissions is part of a global movement that isn't going to change. If we have a sane regime at some point, someone in your position would plump for the V8
When the bankers start to see environmental issues as the greatest threat to the global financial system I think it is fair to say that the paradigm has shifted:
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Pages/...
You are facing the end of the internal combustion engine as a means of transport full stop. Getting hung up about petrol vs diesel is like arguing about the colour of the deck chairs on the titanic.
Irrespective of the fact that there will be, in a decade or two, a strong movement towards electric cars (which addresses both issues but more issue (2)), local air quality concerns will force a movement to discourage the purchase and use of diesel cars.
All this will be notwithstanding that they are a drop in the ocean given the horrendous pollution from buses and taxis. The fact that we have taxis chugging around with old, dirty diesel engines is really shameful.
I disagree they're all linked with one another removing trees from streets lack of grass areas the sheer number of people, for example I used to live in Lewisham & could drive to my office in Smithfields in about an hour. The council then altered the one way systems at New Cross taking away carriageways making bigger bus lanes etc all of which meant the journey turned into a 90+ minute journey then add to this the 20mph speed limits & you have a recipe for inefficiency so before we go car bashing petrol or diesel (as I said earlier there are cities around the world where the cars are 90% petrol that have bad air quality) lets start getting onto the council planners & get them explaining themselves.
Also they are adding 30 blocks of Flats(sorry apartments) in Lewisham 2 in the Roundabout
& doing nothing to add to the existing infrastructure so new local schools or nurseries etc which means people will have to travel to do the school run.
So ORD before you bash the car drivers choices & the effect they're having on the local environment I say get onto your local councils case & make them aware of the effects of their decisions because it's all relative.
Also they are adding 30 blocks of Flats(sorry apartments) in Lewisham 2 in the Roundabout
& doing nothing to add to the existing infrastructure so new local schools or nurseries etc which means people will have to travel to do the school run.So ORD before you bash the car drivers choices & the effect they're having on the local environment I say get onto your local councils case & make them aware of the effects of their decisions because it's all relative.
Elysium said:
No. There are lots of people doing tests at the moment and all they show is that there are large differences between actual emissions on the road and the stated NOX emissions from the 'factory condition' tests.
There is no point in comparing current real world emissions with test emissions from 10 years ago. It's not like for like.
NOX is down as has been posted previously. The issue at the moment is the validity and relevance of the official testing regime. The output of these tests is not helpful as the figures have no correlation with actual emissions and in VWs case they are even less relevant, because they designed their software to put the car in a special 'test mode' to get the best result possible.
I suspect that we will see significant changes in the testing regime in response to current issues.
The Euro6 engines with adblue are working well so far as I can see and the fuel consumption is incredible. 60mpg is very achievable in a 2015 A6 for example.
Indeed, the tests themselves are flawed as they do not reflect real-world operating conditions. There is no point in comparing current real world emissions with test emissions from 10 years ago. It's not like for like.
NOX is down as has been posted previously. The issue at the moment is the validity and relevance of the official testing regime. The output of these tests is not helpful as the figures have no correlation with actual emissions and in VWs case they are even less relevant, because they designed their software to put the car in a special 'test mode' to get the best result possible.
I suspect that we will see significant changes in the testing regime in response to current issues.
The Euro6 engines with adblue are working well so far as I can see and the fuel consumption is incredible. 60mpg is very achievable in a 2015 A6 for example.
As for pollutants emitted, the reality is that it's really only particulates that make diesel more offensive in a micro environment. As for overall impact on the environment, petrol takes it easily with carbon monoxide, higher levels of carbon dioxide, and increased levels of cancer-causing hydrocarbons. With NOx, both are about equal when age is factored in, as petrols release more NOx over time and usually end up polluting as much as diesels.
Elysium said:
You are facing the end of the internal combustion engine as a means of transport full stop. Getting hung up about petrol vs diesel is like arguing about the colour of the deck chairs on the titanic.
There is no alternative to internal combustion for planes, ships, heavy industrial equipment.Personal cars are just one part of a much larger picture
scherzkeks said:
Indeed, the tests themselves are flawed as they do not reflect real-world operating conditions.
As for pollutants emitted, the reality is that it's really only particulates that make diesel more offensive in a micro environment. As for overall impact on the environment, petrol takes it easily with carbon monoxide, higher levels of carbon dioxide, and increased levels of cancer-causing hydrocarbons. With NOx, both are about equal when age is factored in, as petrols release more NOx over time and usually end up polluting as much as diesels.
You do talk some utter crap, regardless of the subject matterAs for pollutants emitted, the reality is that it's really only particulates that make diesel more offensive in a micro environment. As for overall impact on the environment, petrol takes it easily with carbon monoxide, higher levels of carbon dioxide, and increased levels of cancer-causing hydrocarbons. With NOx, both are about equal when age is factored in, as petrols release more NOx over time and usually end up polluting as much as diesels.
The only modern petrol's that pollute as badly as diesel's are found in lawnmowers and other, unregulated appliances.
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