Why are people buying expensive diesels?

[heebeegeetee]

skyrover said:

You do talk some utter crap, regardless of the subject matter

The only modern petrol's that pollute as badly as diesel's are found in lawnmowers and other, unregulated appliances.

Give us the detail then, otherwise we're back to fluffy kittens.

[anonymous-user]

scherzkeks said:

Elysium said:

No. There are lots of people doing tests at the moment and all they show is that there are large differences between actual emissions on the road and the stated NOX emissions from the 'factory condition' tests.

There is no point in comparing current real world emissions with test emissions from 10 years ago. It's not like for like.

NOX is down as has been posted previously. The issue at the moment is the validity and relevance of the official testing regime. The output of these tests is not helpful as the figures have no correlation with actual emissions and in VWs case they are even less relevant, because they designed their software to put the car in a special 'test mode' to get the best result possible.

I suspect that we will see significant changes in the testing regime in response to current issues.

The Euro6 engines with adblue are working well so far as I can see and the fuel consumption is incredible. 60mpg is very achievable in a 2015 A6 for example.

Indeed, the tests themselves are flawed as they do not reflect real-world operating conditions.

As for pollutants emitted, the reality is that it's really only particulates that make diesel more offensive in a micro environment. As for overall impact on the environment, petrol takes it easily with carbon monoxide, higher levels of carbon dioxide, and increased levels of cancer-causing hydrocarbons. With NOx, both are about equal when age is factored in, as petrols release more NOx over time and usually end up polluting as much as diesels.

The most densely populated areas on the planet 'micro environments'?

most of the deaths linked to NO2 were because of NO2 emissions from diesel vehicles and other sources within the capital

Air pollution: invisible health threat

[Fastdruid]

scherzkeks said:

Indeed, the tests themselves are flawed as they do not reflect real-world operating conditions.

As for pollutants emitted, the reality is that it's really only particulates that make diesel more offensive in a micro environment. As for overall impact on the environment, petrol takes it easily with carbon monoxide, higher levels of carbon dioxide, and increased levels of cancer-causing hydrocarbons.

CO2 is nothing more than plant food. Admittedly also bad from a global warming POV but not "harmful", CO is not nice but (especially as the users of the black pump lover to drone on about in enclosed spaces) but is short lived, breaking down to CO2 within two months and the atmospheric levels are mostly natural in origin.

As for Hydrocarbons the diesels are still far worse, both legally and actually. Spewing a horrific mix of by-products. I should add this does not make petrols whiter than white as they do also produce HC's.

Over all petrol exhaust is categorised as "might be a carcinogen", diesel exhaust is categorised as "most likely a carcinogen".

scherzkeks said:

With NOx, both are about equal when age is factored in, as petrols release more NOx over time and usually end up polluting as much as diesels.

Source?

Diesels produce far *far* more, very old petrols (ie Euro 3) have been seen to produce more over time but I've not seen anything to suggest the same for newer ones. As well as this I'd suggest that the use patterns would increase the relative amounts of NOx anyway (diesels being worse and being [mostly] used for much higher annual mileages).

[skyrover]

heebeegeetee said:

skyrover said:

You do talk some utter crap, regardless of the subject matter

The only modern petrol's that pollute as badly as diesel's are found in lawnmowers and other, unregulated appliances.

Give us the detail then, otherwise we're back to fluffy kittens.

What details do you want?

A comparison with a modern petrol engine and a leaf blower?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDxQIHoTmxs

The fact that EU standards allow for higher NOx emissions from diesels because they can't match petrols?

The fact that the clouds of black st that bellow forth from every diesel tailpipe under load are not in fact made from fairy dust?

[Fastdruid]

skyrover said:

heebeegeetee said:

skyrover said:

You do talk some utter crap, regardless of the subject matter

The only modern petrol's that pollute as badly as diesel's are found in lawnmowers and other, unregulated appliances.

Give us the detail then, otherwise we're back to fluffy kittens.

What details do you want?

A comparison with a modern petrol engine and a leaf blower?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDxQIHoTmxs

The fact that EU standards allow for higher NOx emissions from diesels because they can't match petrols?

Interesting that even the 2-stroke leaf blower would have passed Euro 6 for NOx (failed utterly at everything else though!) that's at full throttle with no catalyst, after treatment or anything.

The motto of this story is obviously that we need some V8 petrol leaf blowers!

[heebeegeetee]

skyrover said:

What details do you want?

How about similar to the lengthy list of pollutants from diesels that somebody posted on one of these threads (but which will be difficult to find now)?

I think the pollutants form petrols will be similar.

So far, everybody tells us how bad diesels are; everybody says nobody is saying petrols emit fluffy kittens; nobody wants to actually tell us what comes from a petrol tail pipe.

[ORD]

heebeegeetee said:

How about similar to the lengthy list of pollutants from diesels that somebody posted on one of these threads (but which will be difficult to find now)?

I think the pollutants form petrols will be similar.

So far, everybody tells us how bad diesels are; everybody says nobody is saying petrols emit fluffy kittens; nobody wants to actually tell us what comes from a petrol tail pipe.

You're off your rocker, mate. You should just accept that diesels are far more polluting and get on with your life.

[anonymous-user]

ORD said:

heebeegeetee said:

How about similar to the lengthy list of pollutants from diesels that somebody posted on one of these threads (but which will be difficult to find now)?

I think the pollutants form petrols will be similar.

So far, everybody tells us how bad diesels are; everybody says nobody is saying petrols emit fluffy kittens; nobody wants to actually tell us what comes from a petrol tail pipe.

You're off your rocker, mate. You should just accept that diesels are far more polluting and get on with your life.

As Alan Partridge would say, he's a mentalist.

[thebraketester]

Diesels are wk. End of thread.

[Monkeylegend]

thebraketester said:

Diesels are wk. End of thread.

Well that's a very well argued point, it certainly adds much to the debate

[anonymous-user]

St John Smythe said:

ORD said:

heebeegeetee said:

How about similar to the lengthy list of pollutants from diesels that somebody posted on one of these threads (but which will be difficult to find now)?

I think the pollutants form petrols will be similar.

So far, everybody tells us how bad diesels are; everybody says nobody is saying petrols emit fluffy kittens; nobody wants to actually tell us what comes from a petrol tail pipe.

You're off your rocker, mate. You should just accept that diesels are far more polluting and get on with your life.

As Alan Partridge would say, he's a mentalist.

Banning these heaps of crap and improving the underground would be a start!

[anonymous-user]

yonex said:

St John Smythe said:

ORD said:

heebeegeetee said:

How about similar to the lengthy list of pollutants from diesels that somebody posted on one of these threads (but which will be difficult to find now)?

I think the pollutants form petrols will be similar.

So far, everybody tells us how bad diesels are; everybody says nobody is saying petrols emit fluffy kittens; nobody wants to actually tell us what comes from a petrol tail pipe.

You're off your rocker, mate. You should just accept that diesels are far more polluting and get on with your life.

As Alan Partridge would say, he's a mentalist.

Banning these heaps of crap and improving the underground would be a start!

After this morning, I'd agree. Turned up and no trains in either direction on the circle line. Brilliant.

[heebeegeetee]

St John Smythe said:

As Alan Partridge would say, he's a mentalist.

I'm a mentalist for not blindly following what I'm told? My word, you guys certainly have a lot of faith in your politicians. I mean, apart from misleading us on war and the economy, they've misled on this very subject before. I'm astounded that people are so unquestioning.

At least it explains why we've got what we've got.

[Devil2575]

heebeegeetee said:

I'm a mentalist for not blindly following what I'm told? My word, you guys certainly have a lot of faith in your politicians. I mean, apart from misleading us on war and the economy, they've misled on this very subject before. I'm astounded that people are so unquestioning.

At least it explains why we've got what we've got.

What on this subject have they mislead us on before?

While I wouldn't support the view that petrol is great and diesel is terrible, it is fairly easy to explain why burning diesel will produce more pollution than petrol, aside from C02 that is.

Diesel is a heavier cut from crude oil than petrol and in general terms the heavier the hydrocarbon the sttier it is when it burns.

The reality is that as a form of vehicle propulsion both diesel and petrol ICEs should be phased out of the mainstream as EVs become more viable.

[heebeegeetee]

Devil2575 said:

What on this subject have they mislead us on before?

Sorry, I should have said that there is a perception we've been misled on this before, which I don't agree with as strongly as others do.

But there was a time way back when when we were told dervs are cleaner, and then there is the CO2 thing. Labour has said they made a mistake with their tax regime with diesel.

So I do find it rather depressing to see the hold that the media has on people - I think the reporting of this issue has been nonsensical, and as we can see from recent posts on just this thread people believe this stuff wholesale.

The subject certainly doesn't bother me as much as it does others, but by gum, you can see why we are where we are today.

I do think the issue is far more complex than people are allowing for, and I do think that overall petrol cars are not that much better for the health than diesel cars.

[ZX10R NIN]

ZX10R NIN said:

I disagree they're all linked with one another removing trees from streets lack of grass areas the sheer number of people, for example I used to live in Lewisham & could drive to my office in Smithfields in about an hour. The council then altered the one way systems at New Cross taking away carriageways making bigger bus lanes etc all of which meant the journey turned into a 90+ minute journey then add to this the 20mph speed limits & you have a recipe for inefficiency so before we go car bashing petrol or diesel (as I said earlier there are cities around the world where the cars are 90% petrol that have bad air quality) lets start getting onto the council planners & get them explaining themselves.

Also they are adding 30 blocks of Flats(sorry apartments) in Lewisham 2 in the Roundabout & doing nothing to add to the existing infrastructure so new local schools or nurseries etc which means people will have to travel to do the school run.

So before you bash the car drivers choices & the effect they're having on the local environment I say get onto your local councils case & make them aware of the effects of their decisions because it's all relative.

[ZX10R NIN]

If people could actually get to where they need to be without stopping at a set of lights every 500 yards or slow down for a speed hump & sit in traffic because lanes are disappearing then you might find more people happy to buy a petrol & if they do swing that way then co2 emissions will become the next bad thing as they did before.

People buy diesels not because they believe they're doing the environment any good but because that's the car & engine that suits their pockets.

Again if you want people to buy petrol engined cars then get the traffic flowing & to do that you need to be writing to your council officials & not digging people out for buying a diesel car because it starts at the top.

Cause & effect people.

[ORD]

heebeegeetee said:

Sorry, I should have said that there is a perception we've been misled on this before, which I don't agree with as strongly as others do.

But there was a time way back when when we were told dervs are cleaner, and then there is the CO2 thing. Labour has said they made a mistake with their tax regime with diesel.

So I do find it rather depressing to see the hold that the media has on people - I think the reporting of this issue has been nonsensical, and as we can see from recent posts on just this thread people believe this stuff wholesale.

The subject certainly doesn't bother me as much as it does others, but by gum, you can see why we are where we are today.

I do think the issue is far more complex than people are allowing for, and I do think that overall petrol cars are not that much better for the health than diesel cars.

You really cannot just accept that diesel is substantially more polluting. It's remarkable watching your diversion tactics and weasel words.

[heebeegeetee]

ORD said:

You really cannot just accept that diesel is substantially more polluting. It's remarkable watching your diversion tactics and weasel words.

Well, nobody from any scientific basis is saying they are much worse. There's more to it than just tailpipe emissions - just as a starter, if you get rid of diesel cars and there's a significant increase in deliveries to filling stations, guess what fuel is used for that?

From what I'm seeing in this (though admittedly skim read) Euro 4 petrol and Euro 6 diesel is the same. If that meet's your definition of "substantially more polluting" then fine, but it doesn't mine. https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Driv...

The reason I'm not accepting that "diesel is substantially more polluting" is because I'm seeing an enormous disconnect between what the Daily Mail and you guys are saying, and the scientific or research-based papers are saying.

Afaiaa I don't think anyone is saying people should switch from diesel to petrol 'cos it won't achieve a lot.

Indeed in the link I provide (from someone else on this thread, ta very much) there is a reference to scrappage scheme for pre-euro 4 petrol cars.

[Pan Pan Pan]

ORD said:

heebeegeetee said:

How about similar to the lengthy list of pollutants from diesels that somebody posted on one of these threads (but which will be difficult to find now)?

I think the pollutants form petrols will be similar.

So far, everybody tells us how bad diesels are; everybody says nobody is saying petrols emit fluffy kittens; nobody wants to actually tell us what comes from a petrol tail pipe.

You're off your rocker, mate. You should just accept that diesels are far more polluting and get on with your life.

Except that there are two thirds more petrol engined cars than diesels in the UK so overall petrol cars are emitting far more pollution than diesel engined cars, cut the number of petrol cars down to the same number as diesels then you might have a case.