Why are people buying expensive diesels?
Discussion
Pan Pan Pan said:
Except that there are two thirds more petrol engined cars than diesels in the UK so overall petrol cars are emitting far more pollution than diesel engined cars, cut the number of petrol cars down to the same number as diesels then you might have a case.
But diesel cars are likely to travel more miles and quite a few of the petrol cars will be toys. Then when you factor in every major city they are completely full of taxis, buses, delivery trucks...all diesel.Overall, you are making a massive assumption.
yonex said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Except that there are two thirds more petrol engined cars than diesels in the UK so overall petrol cars are emitting far more pollution than diesel engined cars, cut the number of petrol cars down to the same number as diesels then you might have a case.
But diesel cars are likely to travel more miles and quite a few of the petrol cars will be toys. Then when you factor in every major city they are completely full of taxis, buses, delivery trucks...all diesel.Overall, you are making a massive assumption.
heebeegeetee said:
ORD said:
You really cannot just accept that diesel is substantially more polluting. It's remarkable watching your diversion tactics and weasel words.
Well, nobody from any scientific basis is saying they are much worse. There's more to it than just tailpipe emissions - just as a starter, if you get rid of diesel cars and there's a significant increase in deliveries to filling stations, guess what fuel is used for that?From what I'm seeing in this (though admittedly skim read) Euro 4 petrol and Euro 6 diesel is the same. If that meet's your definition of "substantially more polluting" then fine, but it doesn't mine. https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Driv...
heebeegeetee said:
The reason I'm not accepting that "diesel is substantially more polluting" is because I'm seeing an enormous disconnect between what the Daily Mail and you guys are saying, and the scientific or research-based papers are saying.
From your link:Petrol cars at Euro 4 and 5 emit less than a tenth as much NOX as their diesel equivalents
heebeegeetee said:
Afaiaa I don't think anyone is saying people should switch from diesel to petrol 'cos it won't achieve a lot.
Indeed in the link I provide (from someone else on this thread, ta very much) there is a reference to scrappage scheme for pre-euro 4 petrol cars.
Pre-Euro-4 is 10-15 year old cars!Indeed in the link I provide (from someone else on this thread, ta very much) there is a reference to scrappage scheme for pre-euro 4 petrol cars.
So your entire argument for diesels aren't as polluting is that 10 years ago petrol cars already hit the current diesel standard for NOx, standards that for Euro IV and V many diesels only ever manage to hit in the lab and as recent tests have shown the same is true for Euro VI too.
In the report you linked to it gives a nice appendix 2, table 2 Tested emissions (grammes per kilometre):
Tier Date Diesel Petrol
NOX PM NOX PM
Pre-Euro 0.479 0.171 2.278 0.003
Euro 1 1993 0.570 0.054 0.260 0.003
Euro 2 1997 0.600 0.043 0.144 0.003
Euro 3 2001 0.687 0.028 0.072 0.001
Euro 4 2006 0.482 0.027 0.047 0.001
Euro 5 2010 0.593 0.001 0.035 0.001
Euro 6 2015 0.207 0.001 0.035 0.001
So a Euro 2 petrol car (ie 18-23 years old) in the really real world emits about as much NOx as a Euro VI Diesel car (ie <1 year old) and a modern petrol Euro 6 emits only 15% of NOx in comparison and somehow the petrol is "just as bad".
As that very report you linked to states:
The report said:
Transport for London should carry out regular testing on London’s roads to see if Euro 6 vehicles are reducing the expected level of emissions in the way
their model predicts. It should explore the possibility with the European Commission of removing the ULEZ exemption from vehicles registered as Euro 6 which do not meet the required standards in London’s urban conditions.
So there is a very real possibility that you buy a Euro VI diesel now that it could still be barred from the ULEZ!their model predicts. It should explore the possibility with the European Commission of removing the ULEZ exemption from vehicles registered as Euro 6 which do not meet the required standards in London’s urban conditions.
heebeegeetee said:
Fastdruid said:
So you are comparing modern diesels with 6-10 year old petrols and some how in your mind that means that diesels aren't worse.
No. That's not what I have said or am saying, so your whole post was a waste of time.heebeegeetee said:
From what I'm seeing in this (though admittedly skim read) Euro 4 petrol and Euro 6 diesel is the same. If that meet's your definition of "substantially more polluting" then fine, but it doesn't mine. https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Driv...
In the end of day I care about the environment but I drive diesel because it suits my needs... Not because it's cleaner!!
I don't think people by expensive diesels because they like Diesel engines I think they do it because there is a perception they are cheaper to fuel as they do better mpg. In real terms diesels are more expensive to buy and service so there isn't an economic benefit for someone doing 10000miles a year... Ok some prefer diesel as it encourages a more lazy relaxing drive due to low revs
I don't think people by expensive diesels because they like Diesel engines I think they do it because there is a perception they are cheaper to fuel as they do better mpg. In real terms diesels are more expensive to buy and service so there isn't an economic benefit for someone doing 10000miles a year... Ok some prefer diesel as it encourages a more lazy relaxing drive due to low revs
A
Would you agree that Americans are fatter than Chinese people even though the total mass of Chinese people is higher because there are more of them? A bit like that.
Pan Pan Pan said:
Except that there are two thirds more petrol engined cars than diesels in the UK so overall petrol cars are emitting far more pollution than diesel engined cars, cut the number of petrol cars down to the same number as diesels then you might have a case.
Another hard-of-thinking diesel lover. Would you agree that Americans are fatter than Chinese people even though the total mass of Chinese people is higher because there are more of them? A bit like that.
yonex said:
heebeegeetee said:
No. That's not what I have said or am saying, so your whole post was a waste of time.
You have five cars listed in your profile. If this correct can you explain why you are commenting on air pollution, clearly you aren't that bothered?
ORD said:
Not sure that's terribly relevant, and it comes across as a bit of a personal swipe. Address his shoddy reasoning, rather than attacking him. He talks utter nonsense, but he is entitled to have his nonsense dealt with on its nonsensical merits, rather than attacked because he seems to collect cars
It wasn't meant that way at all, I just find it curious why people show so much interest in air quality when their hobbies and interests cause significant damage? Rather than digging each others personal choices out, why not get onto your local councils & get them to remove the speed humps & 20mph limits.
After a year long battle mine are being lowered I think the 5th bill for a new spliter finally done it (they arrived after I'd moved in) so complaining to them will make more of a difference to your air quality than complaining about someones choice of engine.
After a year long battle mine are being lowered I think the 5th bill for a new spliter finally done it (they arrived after I'd moved in) so complaining to them will make more of a difference to your air quality than complaining about someones choice of engine.
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Thursday 8th October 06:56
ZX10R NIN said:
Rather than digging each others personal choices out, why not get onto your local councils & get them to remove the speed humps & 20mph limits.
After a year long battle mine are being lowered I think the 5th bill for a new spliter finally done it (they arrived after I'd moved in) so complaining to them will make more of a difference to your air quality than complaining about someones choice of engine.
Hopeless, I am afraid. They will say that lower speed limits lead to smoother traffic flow and so less congestion. It might be true at peak hours, but it's nonsense at the times I do my driving. I have literally never seen a single car respect the 20 limits on my route to work in london (630am and light traffic). I assume that this is tolerated because the police know that the 20 limit on a wide, well-sighted road is just insane. After a year long battle mine are being lowered I think the 5th bill for a new spliter finally done it (they arrived after I'd moved in) so complaining to them will make more of a difference to your air quality than complaining about someones choice of engine.
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Thursday 8th October 06:56
ORD said:
A
Would you agree that Americans are fatter than Chinese people even though the total mass of Chinese people is higher because there are more of them? A bit like that.
I spotted that one too but thought "bless" and didn't feel like highlighting it. Pan Pan Pan said:
Except that there are two thirds more petrol engined cars than diesels in the UK so overall petrol cars are emitting far more pollution than diesel engined cars, cut the number of petrol cars down to the same number as diesels then you might have a case.
Another hard-of-thinking diesel lover. Would you agree that Americans are fatter than Chinese people even though the total mass of Chinese people is higher because there are more of them? A bit like that.
ZX10R NIN said:
If people could actually get to where they need to be without stopping at a set of lights every 500 yards or slow down for a speed hump & sit in traffic because lanes are disappearing then you might find more people happy to buy a petrol & if they do swing that way then co2 emissions will become the next bad thing as they did before.
People buy diesels not because they believe they're doing the environment any good but because that's the car & engine that suits their pockets.
Again if you want people to buy petrol engined cars then get the traffic flowing & to do that you need to be writing to your council officials & not digging people out for buying a diesel car because it starts at the top.
Cause & effect people.
Ironically, diesel's are only efficient when under part load. So fuel consumption hugely outperforms petrol on motorways, but is much closer when driven hard or in heavy traffic. Stop / Start tech cuts out idling for both, which makes a big difference. People buy diesels not because they believe they're doing the environment any good but because that's the car & engine that suits their pockets.
Again if you want people to buy petrol engined cars then get the traffic flowing & to do that you need to be writing to your council officials & not digging people out for buying a diesel car because it starts at the top.
Cause & effect people.
My diesel achieves a long term average of 35 mpg compared to 22 mpg for my 335i. That's an improvement of 60%, which will deliver a corresponding reduction in CO2 emissions.
However, according to the factory tests, which it is now clear are virtually meaningless, it emits almost 10 times as much NOX.
The environmental pros/ cons of diesel depend on your view of the relative importance of the above. One of the measures is 'real world' and the other is from a flawed test.
I chose this engine for it's performance
ORD said:
yonex said:
heebeegeetee said:
No. That's not what I have said or am saying, so your whole post was a waste of time.
You have five cars listed in your profile. If this correct can you explain why you are commenting on air pollution, clearly you aren't that bothered?I imagine I'm the same as pretty much 99% of people here - I'm a car enthusiast and I use them a lot, for fun.
I do have an adversity to bulls
t though. I think the level of reporting in the media on some subjects, such as this topic, is bloody deplorable, and I just find it *so* depressing to see the same views repeated parrot-fashion in these forums.When you rad the about the topic in the media you could very quickly get the impression that nothing comes out of the tailpipes of petrol cars, and clearly, that belief is here too. You don't read about harmful additives in petrol, or the fact that more journeys by derv powered hgvs delivering fuel need to be factored when comparing petrol to diesel or whatever.
I'm much more bothered about how easy as a nation we are to manipulate by our greedy, corrupt politicians. Boy, do they get an easy ride, 'cos we'll fall for anything. :grump:
heebeegeetee said:
No it's cool, and Yonex is quite right. I don't think there is a big issue with air quality in the UK and no, I really am not that bothered. Our national longevity isn't bad compared to our peer/neighbouring countries, and we have far more important issues, such as the economy or our damage to the world thru illegal wars and invasions or why our cancer survival rates are amongst the worst in the developed world, or whatever.
I imagine I'm the same as pretty much 99% of people here - I'm a car enthusiast and I use them a lot, for fun.
I do have an adversity to bullst though. I think the level of reporting in the media on some subjects, such as this topic, is bloody deplorable, and I just find it *so* depressing to see the same views repeated parrot-fashion in these forums.
When you rad the about the topic in the media you could very quickly get the impression that nothing comes out of the tailpipes of petrol cars, and clearly, that belief is here too. You don't read about harmful additives in petrol, or the fact that more journeys by derv powered hgvs delivering fuel need to be factored when comparing petrol to diesel or whatever.
I'm much more bothered about how easy as a nation we are to manipulate by our greedy, corrupt politicians. Boy, do they get an easy ride, 'cos we'll fall for anything. :grump:
Thanks for taking the comment in the spirit it was meant. I imagine I'm the same as pretty much 99% of people here - I'm a car enthusiast and I use them a lot, for fun.
I do have an adversity to bulls
t though. I think the level of reporting in the media on some subjects, such as this topic, is bloody deplorable, and I just find it *so* depressing to see the same views repeated parrot-fashion in these forums.When you rad the about the topic in the media you could very quickly get the impression that nothing comes out of the tailpipes of petrol cars, and clearly, that belief is here too. You don't read about harmful additives in petrol, or the fact that more journeys by derv powered hgvs delivering fuel need to be factored when comparing petrol to diesel or whatever.
I'm much more bothered about how easy as a nation we are to manipulate by our greedy, corrupt politicians. Boy, do they get an easy ride, 'cos we'll fall for anything. :grump:
As part of my final year at uni I presented a load of research about pollution and air quality. The main contributors then, and more than likely now is industry.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff