Why are people buying expensive diesels?
Discussion
Elysium said:
Ironically, diesel's are only efficient when under part load. So fuel consumption hugely outperforms petrol on motorways, but is much closer when driven hard or in heavy traffic. Stop / Start tech cuts out idling for both, which makes a big difference.
My diesel achieves a long term average of 35 mpg compared to 22 mpg for my 335i. That's an improvement of 60%, which will deliver a corresponding reduction in CO2 emissions.
However, according to the factory tests, which it is now clear are virtually meaningless, it emits almost 10 times as much NOX.
The environmental pros/ cons of diesel depend on your view of the relative importance of the above. One of the measures is 'real world' and the other is from a flawed test.
I chose this engine for it's performance
Real world my diesel outperforms my petrol by a huge margin around town & on the motorway it's pretty much double as an average it more than double.My diesel achieves a long term average of 35 mpg compared to 22 mpg for my 335i. That's an improvement of 60%, which will deliver a corresponding reduction in CO2 emissions.
However, according to the factory tests, which it is now clear are virtually meaningless, it emits almost 10 times as much NOX.
The environmental pros/ cons of diesel depend on your view of the relative importance of the above. One of the measures is 'real world' and the other is from a flawed test.
I chose this engine for it's performance
Again if traffic was flowing better then the real world nox would be lower as the cars (petrol or diesel) would be running more efficiently, you get bad air quality with petrol cars to I've been to a few cities where the predominant fuel is petrol & the air quality is no better than here in the UK.
yonex said:
Monkeylegend said:
Wrong, they don't all chuck out loads of black s
t, even in London, even in rush hour traffic. It's just your prejudice against diesel.
I watch loads of new Merc's at the local dealership being screwed up the road..all of them smoke to some degree. Your denial is based upon your personal preferences. t, even in London, even in rush hour traffic. It's just your prejudice against diesel.[/quote
Just as your prejudice is based on your personal preferences. Because you cant `see' what is coming out of an exhaust pipe does not mean it is not going to kill you. If you believe that, try sitting in a closed garage with a running petrol engine for an hour or two, and see how `well' you feel, (that is if you manage to come out of the garage at all)
Like it or not, with possibly the exception of some VW cars, diesels are legal for use on UK roads, even the older ones which have to pass the MOT for visible smoke.
You may have a prejudice against diesels, but they are legal, and short of starting a campaign to get them off the roads you will just have to live with them.
Even if new legislation is brought in by government on diesels this will only apply to new cars registered after that new legislation is put in place. they cannot make older cars comply, and if they did, that would mean thousands of classic cars which cannot comply with the latest emissions legislation would also have to be scrapped.
The existing ones will just carry on until they fail an MOT or go the way of all cars past their useful life.
Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Friday 9th October 07:48
thebraketester said:
Any diesel fitted with a DPF will not produce black soot at all. My wife's diesel golf (no sniggering at the back) has a DPF and if you look in the tail pipes there's zero soot build up. Clean as a whistle.
They won't listen because they don't want to believe what we are saying, it doesn't fit with their narrow minded views.Pan Pan Pan said:
Just as your prejudice is based on your personal preferences. Because you cant `see' what is coming out of an exhaust pipe does not mean it is not going to kill you. If you believe that, try sitting in a closed garage with a running petrol engine for an hour or two, and see how `well' you feel, (that is if you manage to come out of the garage at all)
Like it or not, with possibly the exception of some VW cars, diesels are legal for use on UK roads, even the older ones which have to pass the MOT for visible smoke.
You may have a prejudice against diesels, but they are legal, and short of starting a campaign to get them off the roads you will just have to live with them.
Even if new legislation is brought in by government on diesels this will only apply to new cars registered after that new legislation is put in place. they cannot make older cars comply, and if they did, that would mean thousands of classic cars which cannot comply with the latest emissions legislation would also have to be scrapped.
The existing ones will just carry on until they fail an MOT or go the way of all cars past their useful life.
How am I prejudiced, I buy cars based upon my needs? I drove an awful Mk4 Golf diesel and then a Volvo D5 when I was travelling 80 miles a day? Both of them chucked out visible smoke. I didn't ever enjoy a drive in either and the many hire VW hire cars I have used have all been tools to do a job. White goods, dull as dishwater. If I have any kind of actual prejudice it's towards VW Like it or not, with possibly the exception of some VW cars, diesels are legal for use on UK roads, even the older ones which have to pass the MOT for visible smoke.
You may have a prejudice against diesels, but they are legal, and short of starting a campaign to get them off the roads you will just have to live with them.
Even if new legislation is brought in by government on diesels this will only apply to new cars registered after that new legislation is put in place. they cannot make older cars comply, and if they did, that would mean thousands of classic cars which cannot comply with the latest emissions legislation would also have to be scrapped.
The existing ones will just carry on until they fail an MOT or go the way of all cars past their useful life.
If the cost of fuel didn't matter at all very few of you would be driving a diesel car, all the arguments about more torque, almost sounding as good, etc, etc would be out of the window.
Oh and do some reading on NOx. Not to mention all the associated crap that renders a 10 year old diesel car a hit and miss used purchase.
Monkeylegend said:
They won't listen because they don't want to believe what we are saying, it doesn't fit with their narrow minded views.
What, that diesels are generally;- Slower
- Less fun to drive
- As, if not more polluting than petrol
- About to take a bit hit at the pumps
- Aren't as good as everyone makes out
Does that cover it?
yonex said:
Monkeylegend said:
They won't listen because they don't want to believe what we are saying, it doesn't fit with their narrow minded views.
What, that diesels are generally;- Slower
- Less fun to drive
- As, if not more polluting than petrol
- About to take a bit hit at the pumps
- Aren't as good as everyone makes out
Does that cover it?
As for a "bit" hit at the pumps, the jury is out on that, but I will keep it as long as I can and pay whatever the asking price is for diesel. At 52 mpg it doesn't matter to me.
My other car is a petrol
yonex said:
Monkeylegend said:
They won't listen because they don't want to believe what we are saying, it doesn't fit with their narrow minded views.
What, that diesels are generally;- Slower
- Less fun to drive
- As, if not more polluting than petrol
- About to take a bit hit at the pumps
- Aren't as good as everyone makes out
Does that cover it?
- Slower - fractionally if at all, but makes up for it with better mid range torque - ideal for lazy driving in a luxury car, attached to a good auto box.
- Less fun to drive - technically not - might not sound as nice but in some big wafty luxury car, that maybe does long commutes and family duties the rest of the time is "fun to drive" your highest priority.
- More polluting than petrol - both are bad for the planet.
- About to take a hit at the pumps - diesel is cheaper than petrol and a diesel variant will average 50% more MPG than a petrol variant, so theres still quite a bit of leeway there.
- Arent as good as everyone makes out. Big wafty car, big wafty engine? A friend of mine has an E350CDI which replaced his 535D which replaced his twin turbo jag 3.0D. I've never seen him crying into his chips about it not being fast enough or fit for purpose.
Counter that with the real reasons why people buy expensive diesels
- Perceived better residuals
- Less time spent / less money spent at the pumps
- More likely to have strong lease deals / finance deals available
- Popular / default choice
Edited by daemon on Friday 9th October 09:56
Monkeylegend said:
Well I have done 283k in my latest at 52+mpg, and it has earned me a good living, it is worth peanuts but all written off through the business, never gone wrong, and doesn't put out any black smoke, and I enjoy wafting in it. It also gets to 60 in under 9 seconds so what more do I need. Oh and I pay £180 pay VED so happy with that for a more polluting car
As for a "bit" hit at the pumps, the jury is out on that, but I will keep it as long as I can and pay whatever the asking price is for diesel. At 52 mpg it doesn't matter to me.
My other car is a petrol
So how are either of us 'narrow minded'?As for a "bit" hit at the pumps, the jury is out on that, but I will keep it as long as I can and pay whatever the asking price is for diesel. At 52 mpg it doesn't matter to me.
My other car is a petrol
yonex said:
Monkeylegend said:
Well I have done 283k in my latest at 52+mpg, and it has earned me a good living, it is worth peanuts but all written off through the business, never gone wrong, and doesn't put out any black smoke, and I enjoy wafting in it. It also gets to 60 in under 9 seconds so what more do I need. Oh and I pay £180 pay VED so happy with that for a more polluting car
As for a "bit" hit at the pumps, the jury is out on that, but I will keep it as long as I can and pay whatever the asking price is for diesel. At 52 mpg it doesn't matter to me.
My other car is a petrol
So how are either of us 'narrow minded'?As for a "bit" hit at the pumps, the jury is out on that, but I will keep it as long as I can and pay whatever the asking price is for diesel. At 52 mpg it doesn't matter to me.
My other car is a petrol
yonex said:
daemon said:
Because your view is subjective and prejudiced.
It's not, it's based upon ownership of a few diesel cars and driving a shed load of hire cars. I'm not prejudiced I just take diesel for what it is, i.e. purely transport. Everyone is agreeing (in the main) with this.
yonex said:
daemon said:
Because your view is subjective and prejudiced.
It's not, it's based upon ownership of a few diesel cars and driving a shed load of hire cars. I'm not prejudiced I just take diesel for what it is, i.e. purely transport. Everyone is agreeing (in the main) with this.
yonex said:
daemon said:
Because your view is subjective and prejudiced.
It's not, it's based upon ownership of a few diesel cars- Volvo S70, of which you commented "supershed...sold at 240K brilliant old bus"
- And a 90BHP mk4 Golf of which you commented "Mk4 90PD, economical, dull... but did a good turn for a year."
(b) hardly representative of either the cars being discussed OR of modern diesels
Actually the more you read that - when you had a big luxo diesel cruiser you loved it, and the golf was a dull but worthy eco box that did a good turn for a year.
These are EXACTLY the reasons people buy the modern versions of these cars, but you're trying to kick them around for it??
Hypocrytical, like arguing with strangers on the internet or just a bit dim - which are you?
Edited by daemon on Friday 9th October 10:07
CoolHands said:
I commute on a scooter and I can tell you I'm fking sick of stty diesels and the crap they chuck out. Because I'm out in the air I may notice it more than you commuters in cars. But believe me, they're st. New ones, old ones, flashed ones for extra torque, whatever. they all fking chuck out loads of black st when they acdelerate.
Also the noise level pisses me off. When is euro legislation going to address that? (seriously). I want all diesel knackers to have 6 inches of sound deadening foam around a sealed engine compartment. fking outrageous the amount of noise vans lorries and buses make when accelerating.
Or indeed my Insignia 2.0CDTi. Noisy and rattly. Back to a petrol twin-turbo in December.king sick of stty diesels and the crap they chuck out. Because I'm out in the air I may notice it more than you commuters in cars. But believe me, they're st. New ones, old ones, flashed ones for extra torque, whatever. they all fking chuck out loads of black st when they acdelerate.Also the noise level pisses me off. When is euro legislation going to address that? (seriously). I want all diesel knackers to have 6 inches of sound deadening foam around a sealed engine compartment. f
king outrageous the amount of noise vans lorries and buses make when accelerating.daemon said:
From your profile garage you've owned two
(b) hardly representative of either the cars being discussed OR of modern diesels
Actually the more you read that - when you had a big luxo diesel cruiser you loved it, and the golf was a dull but worthy eco box that did a good turn for a year.
These are EXACTLY the reasons people buy the modern versions of these cars, but you're trying to kick them around for it??
Hypocrytical, like arguing with strangers on the internet or just a bit dim - which are you?
I'm not kicking anyone, just pointing out the reasons I bought a diesel and my reasoning, which quite a few seem to agree with? It seems to me that there are many people in here just looking to get offended about things...- Volvo S70, of which you commented "supershed...sold at 240K brilliant old bus"
- And a 90BHP mk4 Golf of which you commented "Mk4 90PD, economical, dull... but did a good turn for a year."
(b) hardly representative of either the cars being discussed OR of modern diesels
Actually the more you read that - when you had a big luxo diesel cruiser you loved it, and the golf was a dull but worthy eco box that did a good turn for a year.
These are EXACTLY the reasons people buy the modern versions of these cars, but you're trying to kick them around for it??
Hypocrytical, like arguing with strangers on the internet or just a bit dim - which are you?
It fits with the reasoning and my take on the cars, transport. It's not hypocracy to point out that a diesel Golf/D5 is a blunt driving tool but also reflect on its strengths, none of which included; driver involvement, engine characteristics or fun.
As for your last comment, I'll leave that for you to answer. You obviously are the one who makes the rules
yonex said:
I'm not kicking anyone, just pointing out the reasons I bought a diesel and my reasoning, which quite a few seem to agree with? It seems to me that there are many people in here just looking to get offended about things...
And there we go - subjective view, that you're trying to extrapolate onto everyone else.I'm not offended - just very bemused at your relentless diesel bashing and blinkeredness about the merits of them.
yonex said:
It fits with the reasoning and my take on the cars, transport. It's not hypocracy to point out that a diesel Golf/D5 is a blunt driving tool but also reflect on its strengths, none of which included; driver involvement, engine characteristics or fun.
And would the petrol equivalent have offered driver involvement?The point being, there are very valid reasons why people buy expensive diesels and they have been repeated ad nauseam but arent being accepted by a minority. Yet, for everyday luxo barge transport you were very happy with one? So WHY is a modern luxo diesel buying the "wrong" engine, when you were perfectly happy with one in a luxo barge?
yonex said:
As for your last comment, I'll leave that for you to answer. You obviously are the one who makes the rules
It seems to be you trying to "make the rules" as to what other people should drive and suits their needs.TurboHatchback said:
Deary me, 63 pages of pointless arguments which all boils down to "cos the empeegees innit" whether it makes sense or not. That's literally all there is to it.
Not quite.Most of these cars are leased or bought using a PCP deal. The "best" deals tend to be on the diesel variants of 6 series, X5's, S class mercs, etc.
And there is still the perception - rightly or wrongly - among buyers that diesels will be worth more / easier to sell than a big petrol engined variant.
That does seem to be changing though, which is good news.
Edited by daemon on Friday 9th October 10:38
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