Why are people buying expensive diesels?
Discussion
jamieduff1981 said:
I'm with the OP here.
I find it absurd that it's acceptable to lose a lot of money on a new car but it's not acceptable to spend a small amount more on fuel.
Keeping an open mind, we initially tried the V6 diesel version of ours. It was crap. We bought the supercharged V8 and are very happy we did.
The power is still effortless from low down. It's also effortless high up. The automatic gearbox is very well suited to it. It doesn't drink twice as much as the diesel. It is real-world very much more powerful than the diesel if you want to use it. In any given gear it'll match the diesel performance from idle up to the diesel's best effort, whereupon it then keeps going long after the diesel starts hammering and wheezing looking for another gear.
Me too. It's always been a mystery to me - if you're that bothered about fuel consumption, buy a cheaper car.I find it absurd that it's acceptable to lose a lot of money on a new car but it's not acceptable to spend a small amount more on fuel.
Keeping an open mind, we initially tried the V6 diesel version of ours. It was crap. We bought the supercharged V8 and are very happy we did.
The power is still effortless from low down. It's also effortless high up. The automatic gearbox is very well suited to it. It doesn't drink twice as much as the diesel. It is real-world very much more powerful than the diesel if you want to use it. In any given gear it'll match the diesel performance from idle up to the diesel's best effort, whereupon it then keeps going long after the diesel starts hammering and wheezing looking for another gear.
Take the Porsche Panamera: I mean who the actual f... spends over £70k on a car and then worries about fuel consumption?
Take the base models: Identical performance, Diesel has 169g of CO2 vs 199g for the Petrol. That doesn't even imply a massive difference in real-world fuel consumption.
And who the hell wants a diesel Porsche? Just... No.
Wills2 said:
227bhp said:
Ollie123 said:
I'd say the forced induction petrol equivalents are just as effortless, only a lot smoother and pleasant, and if we're talking about base models then even cheaper than the diesels.
No they aren't. There is no getting away from the fact that a diesel delivers its power much further down the rev range.I can use my TD quite easily in slow stop/start motorway conditions without even touching the accelerator.
It makes max torque before 2500 rpm and I would guess I can get up to around 40 - 50mph from standstill on tickover.
Diesels are much better suited to Autoboxes too.
The gap has narrowed, but is still noticeable, i'd take a diesel over a petrol on a long motorway journey anyday.
You're comparing apples with oranges.
Baryonyx said:
227bhp said:
No they aren't. There is no getting away from the fact that a diesel delivers its power much further down the rev range.
I can use my TD quite easily in slow stop/start motorway conditions without even touching the accelerator.
In the words of Stephen Fry; "so fI can use my TD quite easily in slow stop/start motorway conditions without even touching the accelerator.
king what?".I own and drive both petrol and diesel, I use one for one job and the other to do a quite different job, they both excel in different ways.
227bhp said:
If mine cost as much, was as new, had the same size engine and cost as much it would wipe the floor with it in that respect.
You're comparing apples with oranges.
Whatever it is it wouldn't hold torque like that.You're comparing apples with oranges.
Diesels generally have a big spike at say 2000rpm then it keeps tailing off, a petrol (blown or not) holds its torque across the rev range, and when you add big capacity and turbos like in that M5 the area under the graph makes for some ridiculous performance.
Retail sales of £50-70k cars are generally very low. The fact is very few people do in fact spend £50k on a car. The vast majority of sales in this sector are company or self-employed lease in which case the CO2 makes a massive difference to the tax bill.
The number of people who are prepared to pay a few hundred extra a month in tax to have a petrol over a diesel car which isn't really theirs anyway is pretty small.
If dealers were constantly getting enquiries for petrols of these cars they'd have them available - but they don't, so they haven't.
Most retail sales are in the supermini/mini/mid-sized class.
The number of people who are prepared to pay a few hundred extra a month in tax to have a petrol over a diesel car which isn't really theirs anyway is pretty small.
If dealers were constantly getting enquiries for petrols of these cars they'd have them available - but they don't, so they haven't.
Most retail sales are in the supermini/mini/mid-sized class.
confused_buyer said:
Retail sales of £50-70k cars are generally very low. The fact is very few people do in fact spend £50k on a car. The vast majority of sales in this sector are company or self-employed lease in which case the CO2 makes a massive difference to the tax bill.
The number of people who are prepared to pay a few hundred extra a month in tax to have a petrol over a diesel car which isn't really theirs anyway is pretty small.
If dealers were constantly getting enquiries for petrols of these cars they'd have them available - but they don't, so they haven't.
Most retail sales are in the supermini/mini/mid-sized class.
I don't think this is correct, I have looked at these cars and going through the company and the BIK tax is so huge that I can't see it ever makes sense to go through the company.The number of people who are prepared to pay a few hundred extra a month in tax to have a petrol over a diesel car which isn't really theirs anyway is pretty small.
If dealers were constantly getting enquiries for petrols of these cars they'd have them available - but they don't, so they haven't.
Most retail sales are in the supermini/mini/mid-sized class.
But maybe I'm missing something here??
I think quite a lot of people do just buy these cars privately, you can finance them fairly cheaply and get them for under £1000 a month which isn't insane money for many people on a reasonable salary, especially if they're well into paying off their mortgage. Certainly see a lot of £50k-£70k cars around so plenty of people are buying them!
227bhp said:
Wills2 said:
227bhp said:
Ollie123 said:
I'd say the forced induction petrol equivalents are just as effortless, only a lot smoother and pleasant, and if we're talking about base models then even cheaper than the diesels.
No they aren't. There is no getting away from the fact that a diesel delivers its power much further down the rev range.I can use my TD quite easily in slow stop/start motorway conditions without even touching the accelerator.
It makes max torque before 2500 rpm and I would guess I can get up to around 40 - 50mph from standstill on tickover.
Diesels are much better suited to Autoboxes too.
The gap has narrowed, but is still noticeable, i'd take a diesel over a petrol on a long motorway journey anyday.
You're comparing apples with oranges.
philmots said:
227bhp said:
If mine cost as much, was as new, had the same size engine and cost as much it would wipe the floor with it in that respect.
You're comparing apples with oranges.
Whatever it is it wouldn't hold torque like that.You're comparing apples with oranges.
Diesels generally have a big spike at say 2000rpm then it keeps tailing off, a petrol (blown or not) holds its torque across the rev range, and when you add big capacity and turbos like in that M5 the area under the graph makes for some ridiculous performance.
Interesting thread.
We have a couple of diesels in our personal fleet - LR Defender SWB 90, BMW 535d but that's it, rest are petrols - the 535d was bought when I was doing mega mileage and it made sense at the time. I am the look out for an XJ 5.0 V8 that is about 12 months old but there is only 15 petrol versions on Autotrader that are less than 2 years old, compared to 168 diesel models.
It's crazy!
We have a couple of diesels in our personal fleet - LR Defender SWB 90, BMW 535d but that's it, rest are petrols - the 535d was bought when I was doing mega mileage and it made sense at the time. I am the look out for an XJ 5.0 V8 that is about 12 months old but there is only 15 petrol versions on Autotrader that are less than 2 years old, compared to 168 diesel models.
It's crazy!
CO2 my arse.
On the rare occasions I take my push bike out it's obvious which cars chuck the most st out and make it difficult to breath, and it ain't the big engine'd petrol's.
Hateful things that unfortunately have now become the norm. On the plus side cars like mine with a big petrol engine will be worth more as they are becoming so rare.
On the rare occasions I take my push bike out it's obvious which cars chuck the most s
t out and make it difficult to breath, and it ain't the big engine'd petrol's.Hateful things that unfortunately have now become the norm. On the plus side cars like mine with a big petrol engine will be worth more as they are becoming so rare.
I think that a petrol engine is the best solution (or even the only one) to make a sportscar, a driver's car. But for an ordinary car, even if it is expensive, a diesel is not equally good but somehow it matters less and I understand the advantages of a diesel engine: more efficiency. People like to have something that is more efficient doing the same things. I see people spending 20€k installing solar panels at home while their annual consumption is less than 2€k.
I drove a recent 535, do I prefer it over a 535d? Yes. Does the petrol engine make it a sporty car? No, an M5 is. But not because of the engine only, it is also about the transmission, the damping, the steering, the dynamics in general.
I once drove a Panamera Turbo when it came out, impressive car but not the kind of car that make you want to go "hunting" for the best twisty road you can think of.
Putting in another way, if a diesel version exists it is not a sporty car to my eyes.
I drove a recent 535, do I prefer it over a 535d? Yes. Does the petrol engine make it a sporty car? No, an M5 is. But not because of the engine only, it is also about the transmission, the damping, the steering, the dynamics in general.
I once drove a Panamera Turbo when it came out, impressive car but not the kind of car that make you want to go "hunting" for the best twisty road you can think of.
Putting in another way, if a diesel version exists it is not a sporty car to my eyes.
I hate diesel engines. I'm on my first and last diesel engine currently having taken out a three year lease (only 9 months to go fortunately) when I got my first job after uni because I needed a cheap frugal car. The engine is shocking - loads of turbo lag and no power after 4k rpm. Thank god I've got my track car as well!
J4CKO said:
A lot of it is around the company car tax and company policy, plus people get overly excited about 40 mpg and cheaper VED.
Exactly, very few people buy these type of cars new privately. I've known a few companies where petrol engined company cars just weren't allowed. If the firm is paying for the fuel you can understand why.Rickyy said:
Most people aren't car enthusiasts and like the effortless, torquey power delivery of modern diesels. They also consider fuel consumption and road tax to be the only factors to consider when working out ownership costs. Which may well make the car cheaper to own and run in certain circumstances, but not in all.
I would add to that "perceived" residuals and perceived ease of resale.Number 5 said:
If you want to spend £50K and you want a four door petrol then buy an M5.
Job done
I think you're on the right lines there.Job done
IF people have a choice, then they tend to gravitate towards diesels for the reasons described.
You really need to be looking for something that IS a petrol car by its nature, such as an XF-R, M5, C or E63, etc.
DJP said:
jamieduff1981 said:
I'm with the OP here.
I find it absurd that it's acceptable to lose a lot of money on a new car but it's not acceptable to spend a small amount more on fuel.
Keeping an open mind, we initially tried the V6 diesel version of ours. It was crap. We bought the supercharged V8 and are very happy we did.
The power is still effortless from low down. It's also effortless high up. The automatic gearbox is very well suited to it. It doesn't drink twice as much as the diesel. It is real-world very much more powerful than the diesel if you want to use it. In any given gear it'll match the diesel performance from idle up to the diesel's best effort, whereupon it then keeps going long after the diesel starts hammering and wheezing looking for another gear.
Me too. It's always been a mystery to me - if you're that bothered about fuel consumption, buy a cheaper car.I find it absurd that it's acceptable to lose a lot of money on a new car but it's not acceptable to spend a small amount more on fuel.
Keeping an open mind, we initially tried the V6 diesel version of ours. It was crap. We bought the supercharged V8 and are very happy we did.
The power is still effortless from low down. It's also effortless high up. The automatic gearbox is very well suited to it. It doesn't drink twice as much as the diesel. It is real-world very much more powerful than the diesel if you want to use it. In any given gear it'll match the diesel performance from idle up to the diesel's best effort, whereupon it then keeps going long after the diesel starts hammering and wheezing looking for another gear.
Take the Porsche Panamera: I mean who the actual f... spends over £70k on a car and then worries about fuel consumption?
Take the base models: Identical performance, Diesel has 169g of CO2 vs 199g for the Petrol. That doesn't even imply a massive difference in real-world fuel consumption.
And who the hell wants a diesel Porsche? Just... No.
Personal preference and also driving requirements are a factor.
I drive 25k miles/yr and toyed with the idea of a petrol, eventually deciding against it because I felt the tank range wasn't long enough. Fuel costs aren't enough of an issue to be a deciding factor, but 400 miles on a tank just isn't enough for me.
I drive 25k miles/yr and toyed with the idea of a petrol, eventually deciding against it because I felt the tank range wasn't long enough. Fuel costs aren't enough of an issue to be a deciding factor, but 400 miles on a tank just isn't enough for me.
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