Why are people buying expensive diesels?
Discussion
marmitemania said:
This diesel fascination is just another example of the sheep culture this country has. You must have a German car an Apple phone and a Diesel car preferably in Silver, Black or Grey. How very dull peoples life's are.
majority of people tends to buy what majority of people buysPerson 1: "I NEED a diesel car"
Person 2: "How many miles do you do a year?"
Person 1: "About 3,000"
Person 2: "Not think a petrol would be better for your situation?"
Person 1: "But the MPGz are lower and the VED is higher in a petrol!!"
Person 2: "How much you looking to spend on the car"
Person 1: "About £23k"
Person 2: "Crack on then pal"
I'm normally person 2 now, can't be bothered anymore.
Person 2: "How many miles do you do a year?"
Person 1: "About 3,000"
Person 2: "Not think a petrol would be better for your situation?"
Person 1: "But the MPGz are lower and the VED is higher in a petrol!!"
Person 2: "How much you looking to spend on the car"
Person 1: "About £23k"
Person 2: "Crack on then pal"
I'm normally person 2 now, can't be bothered anymore.
KingNothing said:
Person 1: "I WANT a diesel car"
Person 2: "How many miles do you do a year?"
Person 1: "About 3,000"
Person 2: "Not think a petrol would be better for your situation?"
Person 1:
....or.... Person 2: "How many miles do you do a year?"
Person 1: "About 3,000"
Person 2: "Not think a petrol would be better for your situation?"
Person 1:
"f
k off thinking you know better about what I prefer and telling me what to do. I'll buy what I fking like. ps off back to your 12yr old V8 that cost you 50p and a bag of walkers so that you can spend the rest of petrol and breakdown cover" ;-)Ares said:
KingNothing said:
Person 1: "I WANT a diesel car"
Person 2: "How many miles do you do a year?"
Person 1: "About 3,000"
Person 2: "Not think a petrol would be better for your situation?"
Person 1:
....or.... Person 2: "How many miles do you do a year?"
Person 1: "About 3,000"
Person 2: "Not think a petrol would be better for your situation?"
Person 1:
"f
k off thinking you know better about what I prefer and telling me what to do. I'll buy what I fking like. ps off back to your 12yr old V8 that cost you 50p and a bag of walkers so that you can spend the rest of petrol and breakdown cover" ;-)daemon said:
Whilst i like the sentiment, i think its even simpler than that - if you're buying some big wafty car and the salesman / the motoring press are telling you the diesel variant is just as good in everyday motoring but holds its value better and is a bit more economical, i'd say it takes less thought than picking the colour of your leather interior.
Exactly, except I would remove the "motoring press" bit. The typical buyer just believes what the salesman tells them re diesel v petrol and ends up with a completely unsuitable car because of it.ORD said:
daemon said:
Whilst i like the sentiment, i think its even simpler than that - if you're buying some big wafty car and the salesman / the motoring press are telling you the diesel variant is just as good in everyday motoring but holds its value better and is a bit more economical, i'd say it takes less thought than picking the colour of your leather interior.
Exactly, except I would remove the "motoring press" bit. The typical buyer just believes what the salesman tells them re diesel v petrol and ends up with a completely unsuitable car because of it.Aside from those who only ever do short trips around town diesel works well for most people. Most people I know drive a diesel and I don't know many people who have found them unsuitable or even unreliable.
Certainly an expensive car that was designed/built in Germany with a view to wafting up and down autobahns is going to be perfectly suited to a diesel motor.
ORD said:
daemon said:
Whilst i like the sentiment, i think its even simpler than that - if you're buying some big wafty car and the salesman / the motoring press are telling you the diesel variant is just as good in everyday motoring but holds its value better and is a bit more economical, i'd say it takes less thought than picking the colour of your leather interior.
Exactly, except I would remove the "motoring press" bit. The typical buyer just believes what the salesman tells them re diesel v petrol and ends up with a completely unsuitable car because of it.2) How is a petrol engine MORE suitable than a like-for-like diesel? At smaller mileages you may not reap the full benefit of an oil burner....but that doesn't make it LESS suitable?
Ares said:
1) I think most people have made up their mind well before they walk into a showroom. Salesmen are not that good...
2) How is a petrol engine MORE suitable than a like-for-like diesel? At smaller mileages you may not reap the full benefit of an oil burner....but that doesn't make it LESS suitable?
Of course it is. It will be seriously damaging to the health of people in the vicinity of its use. It will not get materially better mpg. It will cost much more to fix when it goes wrong. 2) How is a petrol engine MORE suitable than a like-for-like diesel? At smaller mileages you may not reap the full benefit of an oil burner....but that doesn't make it LESS suitable?
Unless you do lots of miles, it's an irrational choice. If you do lots of miles, it's merely a selfish choice.
ORD said:
Ares said:
1) I think most people have made up their mind well before they walk into a showroom. Salesmen are not that good...
2) How is a petrol engine MORE suitable than a like-for-like diesel? At smaller mileages you may not reap the full benefit of an oil burner....but that doesn't make it LESS suitable?
Of course it is. It will be seriously damaging to the health of people in the vicinity of its use. It will not get materially better mpg. It will cost much more to fix when it goes wrong. 2) How is a petrol engine MORE suitable than a like-for-like diesel? At smaller mileages you may not reap the full benefit of an oil burner....but that doesn't make it LESS suitable?
Unless you do lots of miles, it's an irrational choice. If you do lots of miles, it's merely a selfish choice.
So let's address your points:
It will be seriously damaging for the health... It might not do a lot of miles but it does most of those miles are on fast A roads and out of town. It doesn't do low milages because I only drive short distances, it does low milage because I only use it 3 days a week.
It will not get materially better MPG It gets 50+ mpg. Compared to the equivalent petrol model that my wife ran a few years ago it gets rougly 50% better mpg.
It will cost much more to fix when it goes wrong Define much more? It's no more expensive to service and aside from the engine and fuel system it's identical to the petrol version. Yes it has given me one big bill in 4 years, but in general it has been a very cheap car to own. It has been far cheaper so far than the last petrol car I owned.
Ares said:
1) I think most people have made up their mind well before they walk into a showroom. Salesmen are not that good...
And the salesman will opt for the path of least resistence. Hes more likely to get a sale if he runs with what you want, or presents you with the default choice."Have you considered the 4.8is, rather than the 3.0d?" is likely to result in a "No - f
k off" type response rather than taking him a step closer to closing the deal.http://publications.tno.nl/publication/34616868/a1...
About diesel emissions under non NEDC conditions but on open roads give a read at this dutch studies pubblished some months ago, it is relatively well made, NOx are really higher in real world use but this is not a mystery.
Anyway the level of emissions of Eu6 petrol and diesel are comparable.
About diesel emissions under non NEDC conditions but on open roads give a read at this dutch studies pubblished some months ago, it is relatively well made, NOx are really higher in real world use but this is not a mystery.
Anyway the level of emissions of Eu6 petrol and diesel are comparable.
ORD said:
Ares said:
1) I think most people have made up their mind well before they walk into a showroom. Salesmen are not that good...
2) How is a petrol engine MORE suitable than a like-for-like diesel? At smaller mileages you may not reap the full benefit of an oil burner....but that doesn't make it LESS suitable?
Of course it is. It will be seriously damaging to the health of people in the vicinity of its use. It will not get materially better mpg. It will cost much more to fix when it goes wrong. 2) How is a petrol engine MORE suitable than a like-for-like diesel? At smaller mileages you may not reap the full benefit of an oil burner....but that doesn't make it LESS suitable?
Unless you do lots of miles, it's an irrational choice. If you do lots of miles, it's merely a selfish choice.
"Not get materially better mpg?. I get c46mpg out of a 3-litre 380bhp diesel. My wife gets c30mpg from a 1.6l Mini driven locally like Miss Daisy. When she had a diesel mini for a week, she averaged 57mpg.
"Cost much more". How much does ANY new car cost when it goes wrong? Zero, for 3-7yrs, it's covered by a warranty. Beyond that, since when are diesels more expensive/more likely to go wrong? Or is this the DPF scare that every talks about but very few seem to experience?
But regardless, none of the above make a petrol MORE suitable?
As a pure way to "move" a car current diesel engines are superior, they generate power with higher efficiency, it is difficult to argue about that.
In cynical terms petrol engines are still interesting because in small displacement NA applications they can be light and simple and in large NA or Turbo applications they can generate huge power over an ample rev curve without incurring in torque that won't be manageable by transmission.
A 600hp diesel car is still not on sale because it would have so much torque to need a transmission so heavy and expensive to make it not feasible.
In cynical terms petrol engines are still interesting because in small displacement NA applications they can be light and simple and in large NA or Turbo applications they can generate huge power over an ample rev curve without incurring in torque that won't be manageable by transmission.
A 600hp diesel car is still not on sale because it would have so much torque to need a transmission so heavy and expensive to make it not feasible.
daemon said:
Ares said:
1) I think most people have made up their mind well before they walk into a showroom. Salesmen are not that good...
And the salesman will opt for the path of least resistence. Hes more likely to get a sale if he runs with what you want, or presents you with the default choice."Have you considered the 4.8is, rather than the 3.0d?" is likely to result in a "No - f
k off" type response rather than taking him a step closer to closing the deal.
Loved it while I had it though!
KingNothing said:
Person 1: "I NEED a diesel car"
Person 2: "How many miles do you do a year?"
Person 1: "About 3,000"
Person 2: "Not think a petrol would be better for your situation?"
Person 1: "But the MPGz are lower and the VED is higher in a petrol!!"
Person 2: "How much you looking to spend on the car"
Person 1: "About £23k"
Person 2: "Crack on then pal"
I'm normally person 2 now, can't be bothered anymore.
If the residuals are better on the equivalent diesel then even if it costs more, the lease costs may be similar. Also I think some people lease new diesels even if they don't need the fuel economy benefit, just because they pay less company car tax.Person 2: "How many miles do you do a year?"
Person 1: "About 3,000"
Person 2: "Not think a petrol would be better for your situation?"
Person 1: "But the MPGz are lower and the VED is higher in a petrol!!"
Person 2: "How much you looking to spend on the car"
Person 1: "About £23k"
Person 2: "Crack on then pal"
I'm normally person 2 now, can't be bothered anymore.
Also some people don't mind paying a lot extra to lease, just because they earn a lot and want no hassle. I've been in cars that have broken down, and so even if leasing isn't financially a good decision for someone, I understand that position.
Edited by iloveboost on Monday 7th September 19:29
Devil2575 said:
It will not get materially better MPG It gets 50+ mpg. Compared to the equivalent petrol model that my wife ran a few years ago it gets rougly 50% better mpg.
That is the problem. Too many people compare a modern diesel with an older petrol. Compare the equivalent now and there is bugger all in it. 335d vs 340i is about 7 mpg difference. For someone doing 12k miles a year around £12-14 a week difference in fuel.
2.0tdi A3 av 1.4tfsi no real difference for most owners.
With the new petrols things are getting closer and closer, both economy and in power delivery, the only real difference these days is refinement and sound.
Of course there will always be exceptions, but on many modern cars justification for either is getting harder and harder, petrols are feeling more like diesels to drive and the fuel savings are getting less and less.
In the case of the VAG 2.0tdi and 1.4Tfsi it is even more complicated, due to the price differences and the residuals the petrol is the cheaper car to run over 3 years now.
I should just add to that.
I was considering a small every day car to run along side an XK-R or 911.
I looked that the Q3 and the A3 sportback.
The Q3 was £70 a month cheaper on the petrol and the A3 was £55 a month cheaper going petrol.
Doing 12k miles a year the rough price of fuel for either was only £120 a month. This made the petrol the cheaper option by quite some margin as 50% of my fuel was free going petrol based on the monthly price save on the car in the first place.
Yet still the guy at Audi couldn't get his head round this.
I was considering a small every day car to run along side an XK-R or 911.
I looked that the Q3 and the A3 sportback.
The Q3 was £70 a month cheaper on the petrol and the A3 was £55 a month cheaper going petrol.
Doing 12k miles a year the rough price of fuel for either was only £120 a month. This made the petrol the cheaper option by quite some margin as 50% of my fuel was free going petrol based on the monthly price save on the car in the first place.
Yet still the guy at Audi couldn't get his head round this.
Am I taking crazy pills?
OP wants a cheapish second-hand car to do very short journeys. And people are banging on about brand new diesels for long journeys and far far more miles than the OP drives.
Petrol is so obviously the right choice for him. No idea why the diesel lovers have to argue that a granny doing 3 miles a week in town should go for an Audi 2.0d that does 80mpg in lab conditions and would save her 7p a week in fuel (but cost £3k more to buy).
OP wants a cheapish second-hand car to do very short journeys. And people are banging on about brand new diesels for long journeys and far far more miles than the OP drives.
Petrol is so obviously the right choice for him. No idea why the diesel lovers have to argue that a granny doing 3 miles a week in town should go for an Audi 2.0d that does 80mpg in lab conditions and would save her 7p a week in fuel (but cost £3k more to buy).
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff