Taped over warning lights
Discussion
ethomas said:
Does it matter when it happened? The car was sold in in a dangerous and (IMO) unroadworthy state. Not having ABS is one thing (and can be compensated for by braking appropriately), not having ABS when you believe you do have it is something else entirely.
I honestly think the world has gone mad sometimes.... FFS 
ethomas said:
Luckily I have had no reason to test ABS or traction control, I will put the instruments back later and see if there is any glow under the tape that I didn't notice. I am reluctant to remove the tape until I know what my legal position is (I have emailed a lawyer friend).
People of PH. Please. We are car nuts as a rule and so when test driving any car with these features you should always try to find a quiet spot to make sure that they are working (or not) regardless of what some little light is or isn't telling you. We sit there checking heater ventsand switches and that the electric windows and roof works, damn right I am going to test the ABS and TC. I always let the dealer/seller know that I wish to do this and give fair warning (i do not wish to have to remove anyone's teeth from the dash of my new car 
) If they object then it's on to the next car.As for your issue OP it is not my field but i would call taping over of lights like that a blatant and willful deception. Proving who did it though, that's not so easy!
dibbers006 said:
I've been seeing this a lot on PH lately. Surely there must be exceptions?
Or perhaps this only applies to cars actually sold with the implication of roadworthiness.
Otherwise every car ever sold on Wheeler Dealers is illegal
You need to read the whole thing and in context.Or perhaps this only applies to cars actually sold with the implication of roadworthiness.
Otherwise every car ever sold on Wheeler Dealers is illegal
But this is an important part:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/sectio...
gov said:
Paragraph (b) of subsection (6) above shall not apply in relation to a person who, in the course of a trade or business—
(a)exposes a vehicle or trailer for sale, unless he also proves that he took all reasonable steps to ensure that any prospective purchaser would be aware that its use in its current condition on a road in Great Britain would be unlawful, or
(b)offers to sell a vehicle or trailer, unless he also proves that he took all reasonable steps to ensure that the person to whom the offer was made was aware of that fact.]
If you are reselling a car with a current MoT and you allow the purchaser to inspect the vehicle fully, then you are probably covered by the term reasonable.(a)exposes a vehicle or trailer for sale, unless he also proves that he took all reasonable steps to ensure that any prospective purchaser would be aware that its use in its current condition on a road in Great Britain would be unlawful, or
(b)offers to sell a vehicle or trailer, unless he also proves that he took all reasonable steps to ensure that the person to whom the offer was made was aware of that fact.]
The same would apply if you MoT'd a vehicle before selling it.
Of course intentional deception to either gain an MoT or to hide a known fault of a vehicle from the prospective buyer is not legal. But you would need to be able to prove this was the case. Tape covering warning lights will be very hard to prove who and when. The law will also take into context the circumstances of the purchase. So if you are spending £500-2500 on a 10 year old+ vehicle, then it is far more reasonable to assume such cars will have issues, known or unknow.
If you were buying a brand new car at full retail price from a dealership or manufacture, then it would be viewed very differently.
300bhp/ton said:
If you are reselling a car with a current MoT and you allow the purchaser to inspect the vehicle fully, then you are probably covered by the term reasonable.
The same would apply if you MoT'd a vehicle before selling it.
Of course intentional deception to either gain an MoT or to hide a known fault of a vehicle from the prospective buyer is not legal. But you would need to be able to prove this was the case. Tape covering warning lights will be very hard to prove who and when. The law will also take into context the circumstances of the purchase. So if you are spending £500-2500 on a 10 year old+ vehicle, then it is far more reasonable to assume such cars will have issues, known or unknow.
If you were buying a brand new car at full retail price from a dealership or manufacture, then it would be viewed very differently.
I spoke to someone about this today, and I am covered by consumer laws. If a vehicle has an undisclosed fault, it is the responsibility of the dealer selling the car to make that right (refund, replacement, or repair). In this case it does not matter whether the dealer was aware that the lights had been deliberately obscured, they are still responsible for the sale of a faulty vehicle. Of course they can pursue the person who sold it to them, but that is their problem not mine.The same would apply if you MoT'd a vehicle before selling it.
Of course intentional deception to either gain an MoT or to hide a known fault of a vehicle from the prospective buyer is not legal. But you would need to be able to prove this was the case. Tape covering warning lights will be very hard to prove who and when. The law will also take into context the circumstances of the purchase. So if you are spending £500-2500 on a 10 year old+ vehicle, then it is far more reasonable to assume such cars will have issues, known or unknow.
If you were buying a brand new car at full retail price from a dealership or manufacture, then it would be viewed very differently.
More information here https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/cars-an...
It's not as clean cut as that I'm afraid. You certainly have rights, but it might cost you time and money to enforce them. And a court may not agree with you.
SOGA is all about what is "reasonable". You've said yourself you got the car for a bargain. This fact will be taken into account.
But throwing your toys out of the pram claiming they sold you an un-roadworthy car is unlikely to get you anywhere with anyone.
SOGA is all about what is "reasonable". You've said yourself you got the car for a bargain. This fact will be taken into account.
But throwing your toys out of the pram claiming they sold you an un-roadworthy car is unlikely to get you anywhere with anyone.
SlipStream77 said:
300bhp/ton said:
Your opinion is wrong I'm afraid. At least for this bit of legislation. Having a warning light on is not un-roadworthy.
It wouldn't pass an MOT though would it?However you could take a car for an MoT and it pass and a warning light come on while on the drive home. The car would still be road worthy.
Have you spoken to the trader?
Is the car HPI clear? It sounds to me like it may well have been repaired on the cheap. If get it inspected by someone who knows what they are doing.
I'm in Northampton and would be happy to have a look over it for you. I also have the BMW diagnostic kit to help delve a bit deeper.
Good luck getting all this sorted.
Is the car HPI clear? It sounds to me like it may well have been repaired on the cheap. If get it inspected by someone who knows what they are doing.
I'm in Northampton and would be happy to have a look over it for you. I also have the BMW diagnostic kit to help delve a bit deeper.
Good luck getting all this sorted.
So some one suggests that its reasonable for the buyer to have checked that the lights function so he now has no comeback. The same word could also apply the dealer - its reasonable for him to have checked that the lights activate before selling - The meaning off and what lights should illuminate on ignition will be in the handbook.
It sounds as if the either there is a sensor out or the ABS ECU is playing up. Either will bring up most of these lights. I suspect the ECU - the good news is they can usually be fixed or worst case a used unit fitted and re-coded. I'm guessing this is a E46 which ABS ECU failure is very common on.
Whether you have any recourse really depends on what circumstances you bought it and what you paid. If you bought it for £1500 and cheap on the basis that it needed a bit of work then you probably haven't much comeback. If you paid £5000 top retail money for what was considered a good car then you probably have.
There is little recourse under the unroadworthy bit as (a) it is very debatable as to whether it really was unroadworthy and (b) you can't prove it was at the point of sale.
Whether you have any recourse really depends on what circumstances you bought it and what you paid. If you bought it for £1500 and cheap on the basis that it needed a bit of work then you probably haven't much comeback. If you paid £5000 top retail money for what was considered a good car then you probably have.
There is little recourse under the unroadworthy bit as (a) it is very debatable as to whether it really was unroadworthy and (b) you can't prove it was at the point of sale.
Edited by confused_buyer on Saturday 5th September 12:35
I've just read the other thread and see it was "cheap as chips for just over shed money". Therefore I really can't see much comeback.
Just get it code read and find out whether it is a sensor or ECU. They all seem to pack up in the end so looking at it philosophically at least it will be done.
Just get it code read and find out whether it is a sensor or ECU. They all seem to pack up in the end so looking at it philosophically at least it will be done.
ethomas said:
No, the last MOT was in January. There is some mention in the MOT history of lights not coming on around 2012, then a retest at a different centre and no problems any more. I will pop it back in and see if I can spot any light.
You can't have a retest done at a different MOT test centre, only the centre that originally failed the car can retest it, if it went to a different centre it would have had another full test.TooMany2cvs said:
Indeed.
ABS light not self-testing would be an MOT fail. TBH, both ABS and airbag lights not self-testing should be blindingly obvious the first time you turn the key before buying, and lack of handbrake-on warning light should be noticed in quick succession.
The ABS light no longer has to follow a set test sequence, but it does have to illuminate and extinguish. The airbag light isn't required to illuminate at all for the MOT.ABS light not self-testing would be an MOT fail. TBH, both ABS and airbag lights not self-testing should be blindingly obvious the first time you turn the key before buying, and lack of handbrake-on warning light should be noticed in quick succession.
From a MOT stand point it's the non functioning ABS light and the hand brake on warning light (if one of its purposes is to warn of low fluid level) that should cause a fail.
mcford said:
The ABS light no longer has to follow a set test sequence, but it does have to illuminate and extinguish. The airbag light isn't required to illuminate at all for the MOT.
From a MOT stand point it's the non functioning ABS light and the hand brake on warning light (if one of its purposes is to warn of low fluid level) that should cause a fail.
What a load of nonsense - get a TVR, no ABS b******s with them but they apparently work OK!From a MOT stand point it's the non functioning ABS light and the hand brake on warning light (if one of its purposes is to warn of low fluid level) that should cause a fail.
Shifted a Scorpio many years ago after taking the bulb out of the ABS warning light - ABS worked fine!
But to the OP, if you want any comeback against the seller you need to prove they put the tape over the lights, or that they knew the tape was there - probably an uphill battle!
PITA I know but most "dealers" have limited knowledge of what they sell - that is why I got my 325ti for a good price! "Dealer" didn't know what he had, so happy days!
Mr Tidy said:
But to the OP, if you want any comeback against the seller you need to prove they put the tape over the lights, or that they knew the tape was there - probably an uphill battle.
I don't think that's relevant. If a car isn't roadworthy, the Dealer would be liable, whether he knew or not.Tim
ZX10R NIN said:
Buff Mchugelarge said:
As mentioned the lights should all come on with the ignition. If it's a trader I'd have a word.
I imagine you'll get the old 'trade sale, sold as seen ' line.
Who's to say the trader knew it might have been like it beforehand.I imagine you'll get the old 'trade sale, sold as seen ' line.
Incidentally, we had exactly the same thing on a Focus we bought for Mrs Chris71 last year. Bought from a trader, but it wasn't until the first service nince months in that the local garage did a diagnostic check, found the ABS wasn't working and discovered that the bulb had been taken out. It had been MOTd the week before we got it by the trader who sold it to us, so he must have known (and probably was the one who rigged it) but we were outside of the three months set down by the Sale of Good Act. The MOT is due in two weeks and it looks like we will probably have to scrap the car, which has a few other issues and is only worth about £900.
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