Taped over warning lights
Discussion
Hi PH,
As you may know if you followed the thread in Readers' Cars, I recently bought a BMW 325ti. It was a bit of a bargain, though it came with a few faults that I have since rectified.
Tonight I decided to take the instrument binnacle apart to see why the trip counter reset button was not working. When I disassembled it, I found that several warning lights have had their LEDs covered with black electrical tape. Specifically:
t and implies deliberate deception (and dangerous deception too). Assuming that these lights illuminate once I remove the tape and put the binnacle back in the car, do I have any recourse with the seller? I bought from a dodgy looking used car lot near Luton, and perhaps I should have known better, but this seems unacceptable (blah blah etc).
Any thoughts PH?
As you may know if you followed the thread in Readers' Cars, I recently bought a BMW 325ti. It was a bit of a bargain, though it came with a few faults that I have since rectified.
Tonight I decided to take the instrument binnacle apart to see why the trip counter reset button was not working. When I disassembled it, I found that several warning lights have had their LEDs covered with black electrical tape. Specifically:
- Brake warning light
- ABS warning light
- Brake pad level light
- Traction control light
- Airbag warning light
t and implies deliberate deception (and dangerous deception too). Assuming that these lights illuminate once I remove the tape and put the binnacle back in the car, do I have any recourse with the seller? I bought from a dodgy looking used car lot near Luton, and perhaps I should have known better, but this seems unacceptable (blah blah etc).Any thoughts PH?
I have an e36 myself and IIRC all of those lights come on and go off with the self check when you turn the ignition on.
Did you not notice the dash was dark when viewing?
ETA:
Whether you should have spotted it or not, covering the lights is blatent deception and a trader should take the car back. Although they'd probably argue that they didn't know it was there themselves.
Did you not notice the dash was dark when viewing?
ETA:
Whether you should have spotted it or not, covering the lights is blatent deception and a trader should take the car back. Although they'd probably argue that they didn't know it was there themselves.
Edited by JordanTurbo on Tuesday 1st September 21:00
Defcon5 said:
To be fair they may all be down to a single fault (bar the airbag)
Or maybe it's had a replacement cluster and not wired up right?
Does the abs and traction control work?
Luckily I have had no reason to test ABS or traction control, I will put the instruments back later and see if there is any glow under the tape that I didn't notice. I am reluctant to remove the tape until I know what my legal position is (I have emailed a lawyer friend).Or maybe it's had a replacement cluster and not wired up right?
Does the abs and traction control work?
I am reluctant to return the car for a refund as I have spent a considerable amount of money fixing problems so far. An acceptable solution to me would be for the supplying garage to pay for a BMW specialist to resolve all problems associated with whatever warning lights are coming on. The likelihood is that this just means one or more new brake wear sensors, wheel speed sensors, and perhaps the passenger occupancy sensor or a new airbag. I will try to get the codes read tomorrow and find out more.
From a legal position, I found this: "Section 75 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 makes it an offence to sell, supply or offer to sell or supply, or expose for sale an unroadworthy vehicle.". In my opinion, having essential warning lights obscured makes a car unroadworthy. I will pop along to citizen's advice tomorrow and see what they say.
From a legal position, I found this: "Section 75 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 makes it an offence to sell, supply or offer to sell or supply, or expose for sale an unroadworthy vehicle.". In my opinion, having essential warning lights obscured makes a car unroadworthy. I will pop along to citizen's advice tomorrow and see what they say.
ethomas said:
I am reluctant to return the car for a refund as I have spent a considerable amount of money fixing problems so far. An acceptable solution to me would be for the supplying garage to pay for a BMW specialist to resolve all problems associated with whatever warning lights are coming on. The likelihood is that this just means one or more new brake wear sensors, wheel speed sensors, and perhaps the passenger occupancy sensor or a new airbag. I will try to get the codes read tomorrow and find out more.
From a legal position, I found this: "Section 75 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 makes it an offence to sell, supply or offer to sell or supply, or expose for sale an unroadworthy vehicle.". In my opinion, having essential warning lights obscured makes a car unroadworthy. I will pop along to citizen's advice tomorrow and see what they say.
Sorry, I think that's a bit of a naive statement. From a legal position, I found this: "Section 75 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 makes it an offence to sell, supply or offer to sell or supply, or expose for sale an unroadworthy vehicle.". In my opinion, having essential warning lights obscured makes a car unroadworthy. I will pop along to citizen's advice tomorrow and see what they say.
Dealer or no dealer, old car = buyer beware. Blanking a warning light also has no bearing on a car's roadworthiness.
One of my cars (road rally spec) currently has 3 lights spray painted over on the dashboard (and not subtly), as it's had ABS and the airbags removed. This does not mean the car is unroadworthy.
And there's always the possiblity that the dealer genuinely didn't know whether the light was masked or not. I once bought a 328 BMW and only realised 6 months into ownership that the airbag light had been painted over from the inside (pretty neat job!!!
- different cars have different initalisation sequences etc.Ghibli said:
It's probably best to see if any lights come on.
Did the dealer put an MOT on the car before you bought it ?
No, the last MOT was in January. There is some mention in the MOT history of lights not coming on around 2012, then a retest at a different centre and no problems any more. I will pop it back in and see if I can spot any light.Did the dealer put an MOT on the car before you bought it ?
Ghibli said:
Did the dealer put an MOT on the car before you bought it ?
Indeed.ABS light not self-testing would be an MOT fail. TBH, both ABS and airbag lights not self-testing should be blindingly obvious the first time you turn the key before buying, and lack of handbrake-on warning light should be noticed in quick succession.
Aren't these well known for being overly dramatic with the warning lights? This could just be a broken ABS sensor wire, and a bad connector on one of the airbags. You can pretty much guarantee the dealer never even checked these either, he probably got the car in part-ex, and stuck it straight on the forecourt for a quick sale. Unless he is a BMW specialist I wouldn't count on him to know anything specific about how that car is supposed to work and wouldn't take anything for granted until I checked it myself.
Confirm what the faults are for yourself, get an independent mechanic to check it if you like, then once you have hard facts you can do something about it.
Confirm what the faults are for yourself, get an independent mechanic to check it if you like, then once you have hard facts you can do something about it.
dibbers006 said:
I've been seeing this a lot on PH lately. Surely there must be exceptions?
Of course there are.http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/sectio...
The law said:
(6)A person shall not be convicted of an offence under this section in respect of the supply or alteration of a motor vehicle or trailer if he proves—
(a)that it was supplied or altered, as the case may be, for export from Great Britain, or
(b)that he had reasonable cause to believe that the vehicle or trailer would not be used on a road in Great Britain, or would not be so used until it had been put into a condition in which it might lawfully be so used,
(6A)Paragraph (b) of subsection (6) above shall not apply in relation to a person who, in the course of a trade or business—
(a)exposes a vehicle or trailer for sale, unless he also proves that he took all reasonable steps to ensure that any prospective purchaser would be aware that its use in its current condition on a road in Great Britain would be unlawful, or
(b)offers to sell a vehicle or trailer, unless he also proves that he took all reasonable steps to ensure that the person to whom the offer was made was aware of that fact.
(a)that it was supplied or altered, as the case may be, for export from Great Britain, or
(b)that he had reasonable cause to believe that the vehicle or trailer would not be used on a road in Great Britain, or would not be so used until it had been put into a condition in which it might lawfully be so used,
(6A)Paragraph (b) of subsection (6) above shall not apply in relation to a person who, in the course of a trade or business—
(a)exposes a vehicle or trailer for sale, unless he also proves that he took all reasonable steps to ensure that any prospective purchaser would be aware that its use in its current condition on a road in Great Britain would be unlawful, or
(b)offers to sell a vehicle or trailer, unless he also proves that he took all reasonable steps to ensure that the person to whom the offer was made was aware of that fact.
One of my previous cars had the combined oil level and oil pressure LED removed from the binnacle by a former owner. I was somewhat concerned what I found out, however it turned out that it simply required a new oil level sensor at a fairly reasonable cost. It was a bh to locate and then resolder in a new LED though.
h to locate and then resolder in a new LED though.ethomas said:
I am reluctant to return the car for a refund as I have spent a considerable amount of money fixing problems so far. An acceptable solution to me would be for the supplying garage to pay for a BMW specialist to resolve all problems associated with whatever warning lights are coming on. The likelihood is that this just means one or more new brake wear sensors, wheel speed sensors, and perhaps the passenger occupancy sensor or a new airbag. I will try to get the codes read tomorrow and find out more.
From a legal position, I found this: "Section 75 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 makes it an offence to sell, supply or offer to sell or supply, or expose for sale an unroadworthy vehicle.". In my opinion, having essential warning lights obscured makes a car unroadworthy. I will pop along to citizen's advice tomorrow and see what they say.
Your opinion is wrong I'm afraid. At least for this bit of legislation. Having a warning light on is not un-roadworthy.From a legal position, I found this: "Section 75 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 makes it an offence to sell, supply or offer to sell or supply, or expose for sale an unroadworthy vehicle.". In my opinion, having essential warning lights obscured makes a car unroadworthy. I will pop along to citizen's advice tomorrow and see what they say.
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