RE: Roadworks aren't working: PH Blog

[anonymous-user]

Turbobanana said:

Thank you fuelracer496 for your well reasoned, eloquent response. I think it probably addresses most issues raised, except perhaps that of the mileage under speed restriction vs that being worked on.

I work in the Rail industry and we have to plan our worksites extremely carefully so as to limit the blockages as much as possible (much harder to divert a train ). Compare France, where I was last week: worksite protected by a short warning period then traffic released from restriction a few metres beyond where the ACTUAL work was being carried out. And that was on the AutoRoute.

Not a problem, I should have explained about the extent of TM a bit more. More often than not, schemes get grouped under what's termed a 'cluster scheme', meaning that pockets of work within a stretch of road will have a TM layout that encompasses the first site through to the last site. There'll be zones where there are no works being carried out, but much in the same way that the Smart motorway system works, it's been found that traffic flow is more consistent and quicker by reducing the speed over the whole length, rather than having pockets of speed reductions, with the subsequent 70 - 50 - 70 - 50 and so on.

I've seen good and bad examples of this; in some areas the works are stretched out so much that it's hard to justify why it's all bolted down as one lump of TM (certainly in the South West, the clusters are kept as small as possible).

[Talksteer]

Hackney said:

Turbobanana said:

> Does the M1 need a huge concrete barrier that will rebound any luckless vehicle making contact with it back into the stream of traffic rather than absorb some of its speed like a deformable barrier does?

This!

I remember an episode of Tomorrow's world where these amazing new cables meant cars hitting the central reservation would be absorbed into the cable - not smash through to the opposite carriageway or be brought to a very abrupt halt.

And weren't people stranded for days on the M25 (Surrey) in snow due to the fact that it had concrete central reservation which meant cars couldn't be easily moved to the other carriageway?

So why is it suddenly a good idea to put a fg great concrete wall next to the barrier?

And this'll really make you laugh - a huge section of newly installed concrete barrier on the M1 in North Notts has to be dug up and re installed because the supplier used the wrong mix of concrete!

The concrete barriers are evidence based:

1: Cars are tested against offset head on and side impacts, a glancing blow against a concrete barrier is not going to trouble them, my suspicion is that even if you were in the inside lane and deliberately drove into you couldn't kill yourself at any reasonable speed.

2: Those wire barriers equal immediate death to motorcyclists. I'd much rather glance off concrete.

3: They contain heavy vehicles limiting one of the most deadly motorway crashes.

4: Following most crashes you just have to sweep up the results rather than do a repair of the armco barrier.

[theboss]

sealtt said:

Road network capacity is very underwhelming for a small country (England) with easy geography, high population density and being a historically 'rich' country. That's the biggest issue of all. Of course now that land is so insanely expensive and that the local will oppose any attempts to bring infrastructure into the 21st century with their NIMBY campaigns, we don't really have much hope anyway.

Better hope flying cars are on their way soon after driverless ones.

Agree with this - the road network is fundamentally inadequate and I don't blame governments - the people of this country are generally very unembracing of public infrastructure development and associated spend, and we therefore have what we collectively deserve - st.

[Talksteer]

DonkeyApple said:

Just tax 25% of motorway users back into the trains. And make all off peak train travel free. Simple.

Cars carry 85% of passenger miles in the UK.

Double the UK rail network at massive cost, lower that number to 80%......

Unfortunately the London based media doesn't put out this message and people think there is potentiall for a modal shift in UK transport, there isn't.

Autonomous personal cars are the only feasible near term shift.

[anonymous-user]

TartanPaint said:

In my opinion, it's not ever done the BEST way. It's done the CHEAPEST way. If there was an even cheaper way to do it, it would be done that way.

That's because the people picking up the tab for the repair works are not the same people affected by the disruption it causes. I don't agree that those carrying out the work are incentivised proportionally to the total economic cost to the country. If those with shovels in their hands (not literally) were the same people who had to bear the cost of the disruption directly, then a 24/7 effort with endless manpower to absolutely minimise the project duration is exactly how these things would be done.

There's some truth in this, due to the nature of the contract. Currently there are several Asset Support Contracts running in the UK (Area 2, the one I'm part of, being one of them). These were contracts designed at a time of austerity as a means of keeping the maintenance of roads going, when the pot was pretty much empty. The size and type of schemes that can be handled under an ASC are far different to the previous types of contract. It might change when the areas come up for re-bid, but for now, the box we work within is quite small.

As I mentioned above, construction phasing is what it is, and yes things can be done quicker, but the end result is a shoddy job that needs revisiting soon after for snagging works, and in the case of a bridge, that's not a patch repair. In the case of a thaumasite repair scheme, the repairs if carried out correctly, should outlive the rest of the structure i.e. the deck will be due replacement before the repaired foundations give up (the deck having reached the end of its design life). On the flip side, if it's rushed, it's likely you'll be back there performing the same works in 10 years time rather than 75 years time.

I don't want to say 'some things cant be rushed', but the idea is that we go in once, fix the problem and move onto the next - we face criticism for delaying road users as it is, but it's better to do the job properly and not have to revisit it in our lifetime, than have to return within a few years to fix the fix.

[Martinsalharris]

Totally agree with roadworks being fully manned 24/7. Most are manned 8 hours (at best) so if they ran 3 rotating shifts then they would all be completed 3 times as fast and there would only be 1/3 as many at any one time. I struggle to see the flaw in this!!

[dannyDC2]

I cant understand why they don't do it 24/7, it's madness.

There has been roadworks on Sheffield parkway for as long as I can remember, and I've never once seen anyone working on it.

[tuneltek]

recently when i was abroad ,,on a bus to the airport a LGV on the motorway swerved across 3 lanes ...straight through the armco barrier and onto our side of the road . the central barrier did nothing to slow down the LGV or alter its path

if it wasnt for the skill of the bus driver and the lack of nearside barriers to let the LGV driver get off the carriageway i am sure there would have been deaths



as for the information signs in the uk....many years ago after a snowboarding holiday in scotland ....we were doing a steady 90mph on a deserted stretch of motorway near birmingham? early hours of the morning.....the gantry sign reads slow down ... totally ignored it... few miles later ,again the sign says slow down....carried on same speed ...the next gantry sign flashes up....yes you slow down! it worked we slowed down ,,only because we were laughing so much!!

seriously though ,if we want to drive on decent roads we have to accept that they need maintaining...and if we as the car owners put our own journey time above the rest of road users we will always be stressed...there are always options..use the roads that were there before the motorways were built...leaving a little earlier to reach the destination at the desired time ...leave at stupid o clock and have breakfast when you arrive rather than eat before you leave etc
And there is the ultimate non Pistonhead method....buy a defender that is a natural 50mph vehicle!!

[sealtt]

fuelracer496 said:

Some of the points raised were covered in the last article Dan wrote. Having read a few of the comments, there’s some misunderstanding as to what work is done maintaining the existing highway, why and how. I’ll possibly get put back in my box for this, but it might explain some of it (as a chimp that’s involved in highway maintenance).

• Concrete barriers in central reserves (not reservations, reserves).
Steel barriers are a bit old hat, don’t tolerate impacts and have a short service life. In normal conditions, they’d need their beams and posts replacing after say 20 years. That’s time consuming (consider the Armco repairs at Silverstone / Le Mans and multiply the time taken by the linear length of motorway). Steel wire rope systems fell out of favour after cars started to get sliced and diced, along with motorcycle riders losing limbs and the like. Concrete barriers withstand impacts and ar....

Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

[ukaskew]

Dan Trent said:

I did have a 'working' invitation to a centre lined up but it then got elevated to national level and they said 'not until after the election'

Which I guess is partly the problem, very few things are done with the long term in mind, particularly if it means whoever is next in power can take credit for it. The country is run 5 years at a time, literally.

[Freddy88FM]

Cyder said:

So we are a long way off all being in driverless cars then?

Is 20 years that long? Maybe it is. 1995 does seem like a while ago. Then again, is it worth all the disruption for the next five years to create a system that will be all but redundant in a further 15? Traffic on the M25 in 1995: http://i.ytimg.com/vi/JV-xL-HIP0I/hqdefault.jpg. This is far more familiar than it'll look with the mainstream adoption of driver-less cars.

[iamAlegend]

phil4 said:

As I mentioned to a colleague recently...

There's a sign "My Dad works on this site please drive carefully". And as I said. "No, no he doesn't. No one works on this site, there's no one here". And this was a normal, non-raining 10am on a week day. Miles and miles of 50, no work, and nobody in sight.

Edited by phil4 on Wednesday 2nd September 11:43

I'm sure some of those signs are mad up by some guy with a sick sense of humour.

The newest one i saw is YOU MAY NOT ALWAYS SEE US.....No st!!! You'd have to actually be out doing some work for us to see you!!!!!

[TooMany2cvs]

TartanPaint said:

Don't agree with this though:

fuelracer496 said:

If there was a better way of doing it, it would be done that way

In my opinion, it's not ever done the BEST way. It's done the CHEAPEST way. If there was an even cheaper way to do it, it would be done that way.

Define "best"... The real-world definition of "best" has to include value for money - over both the short and long term.

TartanPaint said:

That's because the people picking up the tab for the repair works are not the same people affected by the disruption it causes. I don't agree that those carrying out the work are incentivised proportionally to the total economic cost to the country. If those with shovels in their hands (not literally) were the same people who had to bear the cost of the disruption directly, then a 24/7 effort with endless manpower to absolutely minimise the project duration is exactly how these things would be done.

So fuelracer and his colleagues don't pay any tax? Is that what you're trying to say?

[anonymous-user]

Martinsalharris said:

Totally agree with roadworks being fully manned 24/7. Most are manned 8 hours (at best) so if they ran 3 rotating shifts then they would all be completed 3 times as fast and there would only be 1/3 as many at any one time. I struggle to see the flaw in this!!

The flaw is that it doesn't matter how many workers you throw at maintenance and repair work, it will not speed up the process.

Generally speaking, concrete works are the most time consuming and have the greatest impact to programme. Once the concrete is cast, to say a pier repair, there's a time period for it to reach the desired strength, allowing the shuttering to be removed. The mix design and weather conditions will affect this. Typically it would take 5 days to reach a safe minimum to remove shutters. You cannot do a lot else around that element during that time. Bearing in mind that whilst additives that adjust the strength gain are available, they often lead to a final strength much greater to that of the existing structure which leads to a hard point that isn't necessarily an advantage.

We have run shifts on schemes to help programme but in the case of say, deck concrete repairs, you'd have to run very specific TM to get traffic away from the repair area as vibration from traffic will cause rebar movement leaving voids around the curing concrete. In this instance it would mean removing lanes to allow the concrete the best chance to cure in a hurry. Less lanes is frowned upon.

So it's not as easy as it seems.

[anonymous-user]

iamAlegend said:

I'm sure some of those signs are mad up by some guy with a sick sense of humour.

The newest one i saw is YOU MAY NOT ALWAYS SEE US.....No st!!! You'd have to actually be out doing some work for us to see you!!!!!

No Sh!t !!! They could be under you
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-17...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/4242...

[mattlad]

Why DO they call it roadworks when the road clearly ISN'T working?

[DonkeyApple]

Talksteer said:

DonkeyApple said:

Just tax 25% of motorway users back into the trains. And make all off peak train travel free. Simple.

Cars carry 85% of passenger miles in the UK.

Double the UK rail network at massive cost, lower that number to 80%......

Unfortunately the London based media doesn't put out this message and people think there is potentiall for a modal shift in UK transport, there isn't.

Autonomous personal cars are the only feasible near term shift.

Not strictly true is it?

Move the price up and people will find an alternative. In reality, the actual alternative for the majority is to not make the journey at all but to switch to digital solutions. Those that do would have near empty trains to use off peak.

As we saw when oil was tapping 150, firms took staff off the roads and pushed digital meetings etc.

The massive growth in car ownership and usage way beyond population growth clearly shows that motoring has become cheaper and cheaper and crossed the threshold that meant people could live far more remotely from employment centres. Increasing that cost will not flood other networks but shift use off altogether as usuage is highly elastic.

[gweaver]

Ruffy94 said:

What i can't stand is the stupid signs on the M1 saying 'welcome to our workplace'/'our dad works here'/'lets all get home safely'/'nobody likes a tailgater' etc.

Already annoyed at having to do 40mph for miles and miles, putting a jokey sign up only increases my rage...

Perhaps if the sign explained that concrete was curing, or some other information about the actual work, people would understand and not get so frustrated..

[rovermorris999]

Freddy88FM said:

Most analysts seem to think within 10 years we'll see the first roll out production models (think as Tesla are right now), 20 years time most regulatory issues will have settled in most Western territories, 50 years for it to be illegal to drive a car 'by hand'.

Thank fk I'll be dead by then. 'The Machine Stops' is coming....

[kowalski655]

fuelracer496 said:

Martinsalharris said:

Totally agree with roadworks being fully manned 24/7. Most are manned 8 hours (at best) so if they ran 3 rotating shifts then they would all be completed 3 times as fast and there would only be 1/3 as many at any one time. I struggle to see the flaw in this!!

The flaw is that it doesn't matter how many workers you throw at maintenance and repair work, it will not speed up the process.

Generally speaking, concrete works are the most time consuming and have the greatest impact to programme. Once the concrete is cast, to say a pier repair, there's a time period for it to reach the desired strength, allowing the shuttering to be removed. The mix design and weather conditions will affect this. Typically it would take 5 days to reach a safe minimum to remove shutters. You cannot do a lot else around that element during that time. Bearing in mind that whilst additives that adjust the strength gain are available, they often lead to a final strength much greater to that of the existing structure which leads to a hard point that isn't necessarily an advantage.

We have run shifts on schemes to help programme but in the case of say, deck concrete repairs, you'd have to run very specific TM to get traffic away from the repair area as vibration from traffic will cause rebar movement leaving voids around the curing concrete. In this instance it would mean removing lanes to allow the concrete the best chance to cure in a hurry. Less lanes is frowned upon.

So it's not as easy as it seems.

Also wont the need for 24/7 support services cause problems...who would want heavily laden supply lorries trundling past their houses at all hours to get to the 24/7 roadworks.