Are modern cars really faster than old ones?
Discussion
s m said:
I'm guessing 300bhp, but you want to see stuff like S14 200SX vs GT86?
200bhp both, 1250 kg both, rwd coupes, similar
I reckon the 200SX might edge the acceleration / speed runs but then the GT86 would claw back economy and handling tests. You need a factory fresh car on both sides though - there's the rub
But a GT86 isn't even engineered to be quick. It has a specific goal which is to be balanced and to slide at low speeds. The engineers even put it on skinny hard Tyres to keep low limits.200bhp both, 1250 kg both, rwd coupes, similar
I reckon the 200SX might edge the acceleration / speed runs but then the GT86 would claw back economy and handling tests. You need a factory fresh car on both sides though - there's the rub
Modern version of a 200SX (engineered to a similar goal) 370Z? 235i (a stretch maybe)? TTS?
Quite by chance, my cars hail from the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s and 10s. The difference is not really power, they're all quick, it's not really braking either, since all of them are on discs; it's everything else. From the driver's seat, what really marks out the decades more than anything else is the suspension, chassis rigidity, traction control and steering.
The 250 (1961) has a racing GTO spec engine including 6 double webers, so has plenty of power. But it has leaf springs at the rear and plenty of chassis flex. Steering is as vague as a politicians promise, and front and rear of the car may as well be on separate continents.
The BB is 1980, so not really 70s, but it didn't change much. The windscreen has to have a flexible fitment to accommodate chassis flex but the suspension is better and it's just the pendulum you have to watch. Steering is more precise, but that's comparing a surgeons knife to the prow of a battleship.
The 930 (1985) is brilliant, very tight, great steering but only in comparison to other older stuff. You have to be awake to get the best out of it, and you immediately notice the handling difference if you jump into something from the next decade.
Not sure the F50 is a fair representation of the 90s since it has inboard suspension and a carbon tub. The effects of these is vast though, mainly in that it's so predicable and that you're not correcting mid corner as a matter of course.
2000s is the CGT. What can I say? It's the pinnacle. But it has no answer to the current model RS6 with it's traction control, ABS, braking assist etc even though it has less power.
Not scientific I know, but all from personal experience and closer to the spirit of the original question than a lion in a wig.
The 250 (1961) has a racing GTO spec engine including 6 double webers, so has plenty of power. But it has leaf springs at the rear and plenty of chassis flex. Steering is as vague as a politicians promise, and front and rear of the car may as well be on separate continents.
The BB is 1980, so not really 70s, but it didn't change much. The windscreen has to have a flexible fitment to accommodate chassis flex but the suspension is better and it's just the pendulum you have to watch. Steering is more precise, but that's comparing a surgeons knife to the prow of a battleship.
The 930 (1985) is brilliant, very tight, great steering but only in comparison to other older stuff. You have to be awake to get the best out of it, and you immediately notice the handling difference if you jump into something from the next decade.
Not sure the F50 is a fair representation of the 90s since it has inboard suspension and a carbon tub. The effects of these is vast though, mainly in that it's so predicable and that you're not correcting mid corner as a matter of course.
2000s is the CGT. What can I say? It's the pinnacle. But it has no answer to the current model RS6 with it's traction control, ABS, braking assist etc even though it has less power.
Not scientific I know, but all from personal experience and closer to the spirit of the original question than a lion in a wig.
cheesesliceking said:
TarpaTow said:
Maybe its unfair to include BMs as they are specially developed for enthusiasts so will be better than most,
Yes, i see literally hundreds of 1 series diesels being tracked each weekend. I would say that these days, the average bloke in the street has access to more performance than ever before, even without resorting to the performance models, very easy to be in something older labelled with the performance tag and have trouble with some run of the mill German diesel hatchback, an E30 M3 wouldnt be night and day faster than a Golf GTD across country even if the BM driver is having a lot more fun, most older performance cars wouldnt see which way a Golf R went and it would trouble a lot of older supercars.
Basically, things have evened up, acceleration and the ability to corner quickly are not the be all and end all any more as you can lease some borderline supercar performance for under £300 a month, we need to focus on the enjoyment as a whole from having an interesting car, not being able to "beat" something from the lights, I reckon my 350Z might struggle, or at least it would take a lot of effort with the aforementioned Golf GTD, but I would have bought one if I wanted one.
Lancia Delta Integrale. Hyped up rally replica ''rocketship'' when it came out. There are company repmobiles (nearly 2 tonnes of diesel barge) now which will hand the Lancia it's ass on a plate.
Escort XR3i. The latest and fastest Ford hot hatch when it appeared...with a totally pathetic 105 bhp! The A45AMG i am running at the moment had 355 bhp out of the crate and 427 bhp as it is now. From just 4 cylinders and 1991cc!
BMW currently sell a comfortable do anything and go anywhere car with under 3 litres which will destroy an early V12 Lamborghini Countache on track and road.
Are cars faster now? DOH!
Escort XR3i. The latest and fastest Ford hot hatch when it appeared...with a totally pathetic 105 bhp! The A45AMG i am running at the moment had 355 bhp out of the crate and 427 bhp as it is now. From just 4 cylinders and 1991cc!
BMW currently sell a comfortable do anything and go anywhere car with under 3 litres which will destroy an early V12 Lamborghini Countache on track and road.
Are cars faster now? DOH!
E65Ross said:
I'm not so sure.... The extra hair may be a fire hazard..... However, it does give them a look of sophistication which may indicate a higher level of intelligence. This might in turn mean they can come up with some amazing way of defeating the sun?
Needs glasses to finish the look.The Lotus Carlton was a very special car though. AT the time. Massively powerful for it's day. A whole heap of expense when they go wrong though, as mine did. But there are far easier to drive cars doing 30 mpg now, which will destroy the Carlton road or track, like the new M5 and C63 AMG.
A well driven A45 AMG will easily stay with the Carlton with just 1991 cc and 4 pots.
The new Golf R 400 will certainly leave the Carlton behind road or track also.
When you say nothing has ever left you behind, what have you pitched against? I am pretty sure my Corvette with 566 bhp and no turbos or superchargers and less weight would be in another league, performance-wise.
A well driven A45 AMG will easily stay with the Carlton with just 1991 cc and 4 pots.
The new Golf R 400 will certainly leave the Carlton behind road or track also.
When you say nothing has ever left you behind, what have you pitched against? I am pretty sure my Corvette with 566 bhp and no turbos or superchargers and less weight would be in another league, performance-wise.
Berw said:
No not in practice, with a good driver, is a modern car easier to drive fast, without doubt, my Lotus Carlton has never been left on road by anything, the power increase in modern cars is unusable in the real world, on a track a modern car would win every time.
Interesting experience. Nissan GTRs as an example are ridiculously competent it's great fun trying to stay with them in my old 911. I can get across country at a good pace but in no way would I consider modern cars not to be faster as I have to work very hard in the porsche (it's not a particularly hot one). Golf R, Cupra 280 with DSG etc they're stupidly fast for 25/30K and on a lot of roads are pretty much as quick as anything. i know I cover the ground more quickly in these than I do my 996 or an E46 M3 (not the same thing as being more run though - different question).Berw said:
No not in practice, with a good driver, is a modern car easier to drive fast, without doubt, my Lotus Carlton has never been left on road by anything, the power increase in modern cars is unusable in the real world, on a track a modern car would win every time.
Mine has - frequently But they've all be one wheel drive..........
CorvetteConvert said:
When you say nothing has ever left you behind, what have you pitched against? I am pretty sure my Corvette with 566 bhp and no turbos or superchargers and less weight would be in another league, performance-wise.
Its largely irrelevant with everyday drivers. There is such a broad talent spread and any high performance car, old or new can only use so much potential on the road without being silly.Recent trip to Wales case in point. My diesel (184bhp) Octavia estate was hanging onto the back of my mates Supercharged Exige at anything up to unmentionable speeds, whilst leaving other mates in a RX8 and 360bhp Audi S3 for dead. Also broke the egos of a 911 and M3 CSL on the Evo Triangle.
What you think would be vast differences in speed are not so much over the short straights on a good road. Despite having twice the power of my Skoda the M3CSL was pulling 2 car lengths down a 200m straight which obviously all vanished as soon as I hit the brakes 0.5 sec later.
Other notable performances include leaving a supercharged Atom in a Corolla and a captain big b
ks who thought he was the fastest thing on earth on his R1, yes he beat me down a dual carriageway in my Forester but as soon as we got on the country roads I left him behind and he fell off trying to keep up and the guy in his E92 M3 that couldnt shake my OHs standard 12 year old Mini offFunnily enough the only people that have ever got away from me on a country road are 2 friends of mine both of which have a history of spectacular crashes
the general public just dont realise how far a car can be pushed. Even car people. Back in my youth I knew a fair few boy racers who thought they were fast, I took them out and they crapped themselves and Im pretty confident that if I were to go out with a competent rally driver the difference in ability would be the same again.
RB Will said:
CorvetteConvert said:
When you say nothing has ever left you behind, what have you pitched against? I am pretty sure my Corvette with 566 bhp and no turbos or superchargers and less weight would be in another league, performance-wise.
Its largely irrelevant with everyday drivers. There is such a broad talent spread and any high performance car, old or new can only use so much potential on the road without being silly.Recent trip to Wales case in point. My diesel (184bhp) Octavia estate was hanging onto the back of my mates Supercharged Exige at anything up to unmentionable speeds, whilst leaving other mates in a RX8 and 360bhp Audi S3 for dead. Also broke the egos of a 911 and M3 CSL on the Evo Triangle.
What you think would be vast differences in speed are not so much over the short straights on a good road. Despite having twice the power of my Skoda the M3CSL was pulling 2 car lengths down a 200m straight which obviously all vanished as soon as I hit the brakes 0.5 sec later.
Other notable performances include leaving a supercharged Atom in a Corolla and a captain big b
ks who thought he was the fastest thing on earth on his R1, yes he beat me down a dual carriageway in my Forester but as soon as we got on the country roads I left him behind and he fell off trying to keep up and the guy in his E92 M3 that couldnt shake my OHs standard 12 year old Mini offFunnily enough the only people that have ever got away from me on a country road are 2 friends of mine both of which have a history of spectacular crashes
the general public just dont realise how far a car can be pushed. Even car people. Back in my youth I knew a fair few boy racers who thought they were fast, I took them out and they crapped themselves and Im pretty confident that if I were to go out with a competent rally driver the difference in ability would be the same again.
RB Will said:
Its largely irrelevant with everyday drivers. There is such a broad talent spread and any high performance car, old or new can only use so much potential on the road without being silly.
Recent trip to Wales case in point. My diesel (184bhp) Octavia estate was hanging onto the back of my mates Supercharged Exige at anything up to unmentionable speeds, whilst leaving other mates in a RX8 and 360bhp Audi S3 for dead. Also broke the egos of a 911 and M3 CSL on the Evo Triangle.
What you think would be vast differences in speed are not so much over the short straights on a good road. Despite having twice the power of my Skoda the M3CSL was pulling 2 car lengths down a 200m straight which obviously all vanished as soon as I hit the brakes 0.5 sec later.
Other notable performances include leaving a supercharged Atom in a Corolla and a captain big bks who thought he was the fastest thing on earth on his R1, yes he beat me down a dual carriageway in my Forester but as soon as we got on the country roads I left him behind and he fell off trying to keep up and the guy in his E92 M3 that couldnt shake my OHs standard 12 year old Mini off
Funnily enough the only people that have ever got away from me on a country road are 2 friends of mine both of which have a history of spectacular crashes
the general public just dont realise how far a car can be pushed. Even car people. Back in my youth I knew a fair few boy racers who thought they were fast, I took them out and they crapped themselves and Im pretty confident that if I were to go out with a competent rally driver the difference in ability would be the same again.
You sound like an extremely dangerous driver and a street racer. Here's hoping that you lose your licence fairly soon!Recent trip to Wales case in point. My diesel (184bhp) Octavia estate was hanging onto the back of my mates Supercharged Exige at anything up to unmentionable speeds, whilst leaving other mates in a RX8 and 360bhp Audi S3 for dead. Also broke the egos of a 911 and M3 CSL on the Evo Triangle.
What you think would be vast differences in speed are not so much over the short straights on a good road. Despite having twice the power of my Skoda the M3CSL was pulling 2 car lengths down a 200m straight which obviously all vanished as soon as I hit the brakes 0.5 sec later.
Other notable performances include leaving a supercharged Atom in a Corolla and a captain big b
ks who thought he was the fastest thing on earth on his R1, yes he beat me down a dual carriageway in my Forester but as soon as we got on the country roads I left him behind and he fell off trying to keep up and the guy in his E92 M3 that couldnt shake my OHs standard 12 year old Mini offFunnily enough the only people that have ever got away from me on a country road are 2 friends of mine both of which have a history of spectacular crashes
the general public just dont realise how far a car can be pushed. Even car people. Back in my youth I knew a fair few boy racers who thought they were fast, I took them out and they crapped themselves and Im pretty confident that if I were to go out with a competent rally driver the difference in ability would be the same again.
delta0 said:
AntiLagGC8 said:
Max_Torque said:
Here are two lists:
List 1. The things that make a modern car potentially faster:
1) More power
2) Better brakes
3) Better suspension (roll control, kinematics, damping, Stiffness etc etc)
4) More gears and much faster shifting
5) Stiffer bodyshell
6) Chassis Electronic Feature Content (ABS, DSC, brake steer, E diffs etc)
7) Much wider power band (high torque at low engine speed)
8) Better aerodynamics (less drag, lower lift)
9) Easier / less physical to drive (powersteer etc)
10) Significantly wider tyres which develop high grip through modern Silica enhanced compounds
11) Improved durability at high load (ie engines don't go "bang" like they used too etc
List 2. The things that make a modern car potentially slower:
1) Bit heavier.
By a bit heavier, presumably you mean a lot heavier. List 1. The things that make a modern car potentially faster:
1) More power
2) Better brakes
3) Better suspension (roll control, kinematics, damping, Stiffness etc etc)
4) More gears and much faster shifting
5) Stiffer bodyshell
6) Chassis Electronic Feature Content (ABS, DSC, brake steer, E diffs etc)
7) Much wider power band (high torque at low engine speed)
8) Better aerodynamics (less drag, lower lift)
9) Easier / less physical to drive (powersteer etc)
10) Significantly wider tyres which develop high grip through modern Silica enhanced compounds
11) Improved durability at high load (ie engines don't go "bang" like they used too etc
List 2. The things that make a modern car potentially slower:
1) Bit heavier.
I did laugh a little at point 11. Engines that don't go bang, what about turbo's and DPF's? Lots of modern cars have serious reliability issues and things often do go bang!
My RB5 is a 1200kg and is arguably a hot hatch in today's parlance. It was a Prodrive WR model and originally made 237bhp on the wrong fuel (they tested on 95 and the car was mapped from factory for 97) and a little over 250bhp on the correct fuel. It could achieve 0-60 in 4.9's and has truly incredible grip in all conditions.
How many modern hot hatches can outperform the car in a drag race to the obligatory 60 (the usual hot hatch measure) or on a typical rough British B road?
Colin Chapman said:
Adding power makes you faster on the straights; subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere
I can out drag a Golf R from 30mph upwards on an airfield.
Hungrymc said:
s m said:
I'm guessing 300bhp, but you want to see stuff like S14 200SX vs GT86?
200bhp both, 1250 kg both, rwd coupes, similar
I reckon the 200SX might edge the acceleration / speed runs but then the GT86 would claw back economy and handling tests. You need a factory fresh car on both sides though - there's the rub
But a GT86 isn't even engineered to be quick. It has a specific goal which is to be balanced and to slide at low speeds. The engineers even put it on skinny hard Tyres to keep low limits.200bhp both, 1250 kg both, rwd coupes, similar
I reckon the 200SX might edge the acceleration / speed runs but then the GT86 would claw back economy and handling tests. You need a factory fresh car on both sides though - there's the rub
Modern version of a 200SX (engineered to a similar goal) 370Z? 235i (a stretch maybe)? TTS?
Bear in mind the 200SX was meant to be a fun car too 20 years back. If it was all about speed it wouldn't have narrower/smaller tyres than the GT86. The big GT was the 300ZX
Apart from more torque it's very similar to the ethos of the GT 86 - a 2+2 designed to be slid around and driven for fun! The manner of execution might have changed over 2 decades but fun slidey cars aren't just the preserve of n/a engines even if they are your personal preference
ORD said:
You sound like an extremely dangerous driver and a street racer. Here's hoping that you lose your licence fairly soon!
18 years of driving, no points, no cars smashed up, highest scoring employee in the driving assessment at a firm with over 100 employees, never been in a street race, friends and family feel safer with me driving than anyone else they know but yeah you go ahead and think what you like 
RB Will said:
18 years of driving, no points, no cars smashed up, highest scoring employee in the driving assessment at a firm with over 100 employees, never been in a street race, friends and family feel safer with me driving than anyone else they know but yeah you go ahead and think what you like
I will. You cannot possibly be driving so as to be able to stop within the distance you can see in the circumstances you describe. Either that or you're full of st Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff