Can a car BE 'over-rated'?
Discussion
redsport said:
I have an M3 CSL, I'm putting that up front. So not a rant and with the respect of all to have an opinion, but thought a view from an owner might be of interest. I had an M3 e46 smg before it for 7 years. The difference between the cars is amazing. Note that sport auto magazine lapped the ring in 7.50 in a standard M3 CSL. not a works driver or walter' ringed out 911. not many cars can do that. in fact the 911 gt3 could not, so they updated it, I don't doubt the corvette is fast, and a good drive. But lift up the hood, look at the carbon airbox, and interior, roof, bumper boot lid and all the other work. if you go to BMW and wanted to buy the parts to turn a standard M3 into a CSL, just the different parts the bill would be 81k... but all of that means nothing compared to how it drives.
when you look at the e90 M3 GTS lapping the ring only 2 seconds quicker, that should have "could try harder" on the school report.. the CSL does need better brakes, but BMW have done many SMG software updates, the last not long ago and the latest shifting with a nice rebuild of the box and clutch like mine is shocking good. I have also worked for VW group, driven everything they own, and nothing rides and has the perfect suspension balance the CSL does.. as when it was new, for many the M3 CSL is still misunderstood and many have not grasped that this was M division taking a car and thinking "how can I make this the best it can be using ( at the time) state of the art and turning carbon quality moulding to an F1 level of build, take a good look at the carbon weave in the roof doors and airbox and ponder how they managed to get the weave all the way from front to back without a single strand out of line with exactly the same layup and resign finish in 2003 and it had never been done in a roof component like this before. This is a BMW engineering quality exercise.. This is a demonstration of the best they could do, using the best team in BMW.
This car will perhaps always be under rated by many, but there were only 400 in the UK, probably 300 left, probably 4 you can buy for now... and for what you pay and what you get, what else has this level of special engineering, quality, performance, about 40 k will get a well sorted one with mid miles ( not for long) . 355 bhp is plenty for a UK road, and all cars make a different noise, I guess you buy noises you like. The first McLaren F1 had a BWM engine, listen to that and listen to an M3 CSL, very similar sound. At a time when a new honda civic type R can give a lot of 00's super cars a hard time, everything changes but if you are into the real, I Engineered the best I could" philosophy, you'll appreciate a CSL.
and having said all the, Renault Cliosport 200 is so much fun to drive, like a baby CSL with less power, had one of those too, and when it's time for the CSL to go it might be another 200 and a comfy barge for retirement, or maybe i'll try a corvette and like that ;o)
great topic for debate and all good points
Have to say I'm a recent convert to the CSL having purchased one about 3 weeks ago. I'd never driven one before buying one, I read about them, saw them at shows, wanted one for a while. Like some people have said previously, never meet your heroes. This car is not a let down by any stretch of the imagination. I wanted a car that was an all out drivers car, one that I could actually enjoy, a car that felt special but didn't shout about it. Sure it's not a great deal of fun to drive around town at slow speeds, but put it on some roads it was built to tackle and it's a huge amount of fun, it's agile, sounds phenomenal and has what I'd consider to be adequate power for the road. I'm still debating as to whether I should get it on track, I think that's when it would seriously come alive. when you look at the e90 M3 GTS lapping the ring only 2 seconds quicker, that should have "could try harder" on the school report.. the CSL does need better brakes, but BMW have done many SMG software updates, the last not long ago and the latest shifting with a nice rebuild of the box and clutch like mine is shocking good. I have also worked for VW group, driven everything they own, and nothing rides and has the perfect suspension balance the CSL does.. as when it was new, for many the M3 CSL is still misunderstood and many have not grasped that this was M division taking a car and thinking "how can I make this the best it can be using ( at the time) state of the art and turning carbon quality moulding to an F1 level of build, take a good look at the carbon weave in the roof doors and airbox and ponder how they managed to get the weave all the way from front to back without a single strand out of line with exactly the same layup and resign finish in 2003 and it had never been done in a roof component like this before. This is a BMW engineering quality exercise.. This is a demonstration of the best they could do, using the best team in BMW.
This car will perhaps always be under rated by many, but there were only 400 in the UK, probably 300 left, probably 4 you can buy for now... and for what you pay and what you get, what else has this level of special engineering, quality, performance, about 40 k will get a well sorted one with mid miles ( not for long) . 355 bhp is plenty for a UK road, and all cars make a different noise, I guess you buy noises you like. The first McLaren F1 had a BWM engine, listen to that and listen to an M3 CSL, very similar sound. At a time when a new honda civic type R can give a lot of 00's super cars a hard time, everything changes but if you are into the real, I Engineered the best I could" philosophy, you'll appreciate a CSL.
and having said all the, Renault Cliosport 200 is so much fun to drive, like a baby CSL with less power, had one of those too, and when it's time for the CSL to go it might be another 200 and a comfy barge for retirement, or maybe i'll try a corvette and like that ;o)
great topic for debate and all good points
As everyone has said it's down to personal opinion.
I'm approaching this thread with some trepidation (you'll see why). But based on the cars I've owned:
1. Most under-rated. My Alfa 159 Sportwagon (V6) - I loved it. Maybe I was lucky in having one that didn't go wrong. But I still dream of that engine (and I've got a DB9 now)
2. ...and this is where the flaming may being, most over-rated; my Lotus Elise 111s. Now I admit I came from a Caterham 1.4 K-Series, which I raced periodically (brilliant car, but rated as such) via an M3 BMW (dull, dull, dull). But I thought - the Lotus Elise will be the modern equivalent of a Caterham. I was massively underwhelmed. I know other people love them, but to me it seemed slow, lacked any drama on the noise front (despite putting a sports exhaust on), the interior wasn't well built (and that's coming from a Caterham owner!). And the handling was good, but not enough to redeem the whole package
1. Most under-rated. My Alfa 159 Sportwagon (V6) - I loved it. Maybe I was lucky in having one that didn't go wrong. But I still dream of that engine (and I've got a DB9 now)
2. ...and this is where the flaming may being, most over-rated; my Lotus Elise 111s. Now I admit I came from a Caterham 1.4 K-Series, which I raced periodically (brilliant car, but rated as such) via an M3 BMW (dull, dull, dull). But I thought - the Lotus Elise will be the modern equivalent of a Caterham. I was massively underwhelmed. I know other people love them, but to me it seemed slow, lacked any drama on the noise front (despite putting a sports exhaust on), the interior wasn't well built (and that's coming from a Caterham owner!). And the handling was good, but not enough to redeem the whole package
RobDown said:
1. Most under-rated. My Alfa 159 Sportwagon (V6) - I loved it. Maybe I was lucky in having one that didn't go wrong. But I still dream of that engine (and I've got a DB9 now)
The thing with the 159 is... Alfa's have a very bad reputation, mostly deserved.As I mentioned before, the 159 was built like a tank, over engineered by Alfa to get rid of their bad reputation. I've owned two and they have been the most reliable cars I've owned. On top of that, my current has 120k miles and it's interiour quality and looks would put all my 60k miles Germans to shame.
ZesPak said:
RobDown said:
1. Most under-rated. My Alfa 159 Sportwagon (V6) - I loved it. Maybe I was lucky in having one that didn't go wrong. But I still dream of that engine (and I've got a DB9 now)
The thing with the 159 is... Alfa's have a very bad reputation, mostly deserved.As I mentioned before, the 159 was built like a tank, over engineered by Alfa to get rid of their bad reputation. I've owned two and they have been the most reliable cars I've owned. On top of that, my current has 120k miles and it's interiour quality and looks would put all my 60k miles Germans to shame.
There's not many V6s available. Were any of them manuals? Here's an auto saloon for sale.
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/a...
Are the 1.75l TBis good? There's a Sportwagon here, but nearly £14K...
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/a...
Under-rated car that I would have to disagree with would be the Mazda Rx8 having owned one, I loved that car. it should be a car that petrol-heads can appreciate, Its unique a proper driver's car and yes i suppose does drink too much fuel but for cheap practical thrills it was great. instead every man and his dog seems to have a strong opinion on why they they should be avoided like the plague having never been in one let alone driven/owned one.
Over-Rated car would have to be the fiat 500, my girlfriend had one and her Mom still does, FIAT = FIX IT AGAIN TOMORROW it was only 2 years old the wing mirror came off in her hand folding it in among various other things. if I'm being honest it wasn't that bad... i just dont agree with the high ratings and popularity they get.
Over-Rated car would have to be the fiat 500, my girlfriend had one and her Mom still does, FIAT = FIX IT AGAIN TOMORROW it was only 2 years old the wing mirror came off in her hand folding it in among various other things. if I'm being honest it wasn't that bad... i just dont agree with the high ratings and popularity they get.
3yardy3 said:
Over-Rated car would have to be the fiat 500, my girlfriend had one and her Mom still does, FIAT = FIX IT AGAIN TOMORROW it was only 2 years old the wing mirror came off in her hand folding it in among various other things. if I'm being honest it wasn't that bad... i just dont agree with the high ratings and popularity they get.
? I thought the consensus on that one was that it's an overpriced Panda in an impractical fancy dress?daveco said:
I got absolutely flamed on here before for saying it but the E46 M3 left me distinctly underwhelmed and it was the be all and end all as a kid growing up. I still have the October 2000 issue of EVO with it on the front cover!
I was coming from a 325/330 and the M3 (test drove three of them) did not feel that much quicker. I will get lambasted for this but the 3.0 litre engine in the 330 is better imo. LJK Setright said something about the best engines are those where HP and LB FT are about the same and it seemed to be the case for me.
I test drove a 335 expecting it to be a soul less turbo when in actual fact it handled better, sounded better, and felt quicker than the E46 M3. Granted it looks pretty s
te in comparison and the interior is woeful and cheap but there you go 
Interesting viewpoint.I was coming from a 325/330 and the M3 (test drove three of them) did not feel that much quicker. I will get lambasted for this but the 3.0 litre engine in the 330 is better imo. LJK Setright said something about the best engines are those where HP and LB FT are about the same and it seemed to be the case for me.
I test drove a 335 expecting it to be a soul less turbo when in actual fact it handled better, sounded better, and felt quicker than the E46 M3. Granted it looks pretty s
te in comparison and the interior is woeful and cheap but there you go I was lucky enough to own both an e46 M3 and an e46 330 Sport Touring a while back. Both manual gearboxes.
The M3 I owned for ages and bought the 330 for work reasons to put less miles on the m3.
330 felt very slow and dull, too quiet, not enough engine noise.
I had a week out of the m3 when we had snow and when I drove it again it felt mental.
However, the m3 is totally dominated by the engine, and felt a bit like being chained to a lunatic.
Have nothing but fond memories of the m3, plenty of torque low down compared to the e34 m5 I had earlier.
The 330 was a nice car, but no character. I preferred the 328 Sport e36 that I had a year previously, just felt a bit nicer and special.
I'd have another m3 and still think they look great, and not many about either.
So for me the e46 330 Sport is over-rated.
Also owned a cheap Impreza Turbo estate wagon last year, drove it home and quickly felt an idiot, kept it in the garage and sold it 3 months later. Just too loud and silly. I thought buying an estate one would be ok, but I was wrong. I drove one when they first came out and loved it back in 1994, but time has not been kind. Fast though, but just not for me. Maybe I was the problem here though.
For me it has to be a Cayman. I had a 2.8 and what a gutless slug that was. No performance what so ever unless you revved it to bits. Also awful fuel consumption. Replaced it with a 997 turbo and then realised what all the hype about Porsche was about. Here was a car you could use everyday (including ski trips with winter tyres fitted) was incredibly fast, did not have to rev it to bits to get any where and made overtaking safe. Also it was only about 3 mpg worse than the Cayman.
martisracing said:
For me it has to be a Cayman. I had a 2.8 and what a gutless slug that was. No performance what so ever unless you revved it to bits. Also awful fuel consumption. Replaced it with a 997 turbo and then realised what all the hype about Porsche was about. Here was a car you could use everyday (including ski trips with winter tyres fitted) was incredibly fast, did not have to rev it to bits to get any where and made overtaking safe. Also it was only about 3 mpg worse than the Cayman.
Problem seems to be that you bought a Porsche with an engine that doesn't exist 
In seriousness, you bought the wrong car for your wants. You wanted lots of easy performance and you bought the least powerful Porsche available, and one that loves to rev but is low on torque. I wouldn't say that makes it over-rated.
I don't see the point in the 911 Turbo, personally, but I wouldn't say it is overrated. It's just not for me. The same is true of pretty much any insanely fast car.
Another suggestion of an overrated car - the i3. It's probably the ugliest vehicle that I have ever seen, and the wheels are literally comic - why not fit small wheels if you want small wheels, rather than big but insanely thin wheels?
Tonto said:
PTF said:
Integra Type-R DC2
Agree.I have never had a bad integra type r dc2 just degrees of excellence. Maybe you just drove a tired one or one with a neglected drivetrain/transmission. My cherished example drives spot on and would receive admiration from any car enthusiast at any level. Unfortunately it sits more than it drives as I want to preserve the car which pains me greatly. I've driven my current example only the once in fact and a good dc2 is strong and tactile enough to not even need to access vtec, but when it does it is truly spectacular. Raw for some, but the special occasion feeling of driving a good example has only been enhanced with age, especially in comparison with the latest lard infested euro boxes. The handling balance and control weights are all harmonious.
[quote/]
I defy any car enthusiast to drive my dc2 and not agree it is a very special car indeed.
I have never had a bad integra type r dc2 just degrees of excellence. Maybe you just drove a tired one or one with a neglected drivetrain/transmission. My cherished example drives spot on and would receive admiration from any car enthusiast at any level. Unfortunately it sits more than it drives as I want to preserve the car which pains me greatly. I've driven my current example only the once in fact and a good dc2 is strong and tactile enough to not even need to access vtec, but when it does it is truly spectacular. Raw for some, but the special occasion feeling of driving a good example has only been enhanced with age, especially in comparison with the latest lard infested euro boxes. The handling balance and control weights are all harmonious.
[/quote]
That good but you've driven it once? Life's too short!
I defy any car enthusiast to drive my dc2 and not agree it is a very special car indeed.
I have never had a bad integra type r dc2 just degrees of excellence. Maybe you just drove a tired one or one with a neglected drivetrain/transmission. My cherished example drives spot on and would receive admiration from any car enthusiast at any level. Unfortunately it sits more than it drives as I want to preserve the car which pains me greatly. I've driven my current example only the once in fact and a good dc2 is strong and tactile enough to not even need to access vtec, but when it does it is truly spectacular. Raw for some, but the special occasion feeling of driving a good example has only been enhanced with age, especially in comparison with the latest lard infested euro boxes. The handling balance and control weights are all harmonious.
[/quote]
That good but you've driven it once? Life's too short!
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