Can a car BE 'over-rated'?

Can a car BE 'over-rated'?

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Discussion

smithtn22

7 posts

153 months

Sunday 20th September 2015
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T0MMY said:
Well I dont want to derail the thread but the Ma5da cars aren't allowed any major performance enhancing engine modifications either, apart from changing the exhaust. They run about 135bhp. They also can only use coilovers, no other suspension mods and no aftermarket antiroll bars. They're well down on power compared to an MR2 but as far as I'm aware the lap times are quicker on just about every circuit, despite being on Kumho KH31 boggo road tyres (and I just looked at the MR2 regs and they use R888 track tyres don't they!?).

Edited by T0MMY on Sunday 20th September 10:02
Yes let's not, suffice to say coilovers are a major enhancement when it comes to changing a cars cornering ability. I've heard good and bad things about R888's on an mr2. The Mx5 is at 135bhp and is fully stripped out (In the video you posted the commentator even states the fact the Mx5's haven't got headlights!), unlike the mr2's. The early revision mr2's were lighter than the later revs at 156bhp (not a lot extra with the extra weight), the later having 168-173bhp (but heavier), not a massive performance advantage when standard, add in the more lax mx5 rules and it makes them appear more competitive.

bentley01

1,002 posts

135 months

Sunday 20th September 2015
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ORD said:
A lot of people say this, so I know there must be something in it. But I just dont get it. The AM is heavier, slower and less tactile. It is nothing like as good a sports car. Using your language, the AM isnt even a jack of any trades apart from looking pretty. Style over substance.

Whether or not you like an engine sound is almost completely subjective. The flat 6 is generally regarded to have one of the best sounds, but if you dont like it, you dont like it, and some people dont. I dont really like standard V8s, so the AM engine is lost on me, but I am in the minority there.

You cant compare a 1400kg car to a Lotus. It's like saying a Lotus is a master of no trades because it isnt a Caterham or a Radical. Different cars.
Having owned various Porsches including a 997s bought brand new I have to agree with Justin. The Aston is so much better in many ways. Looks and sound are a given but in terms of performance the 4.7 is quicker and certainly handles as well on the twisty stuff. Yet in reality none of this really matters because owning the Aston is about so much more than mere figures. It is always an event to be in and you can get your fix just looking at it. The interior is handcrafted and the pleasure and smiles the car generates is something to behold. 911s are great cars but the Aston for me is in another league.

Timbergiant

995 posts

129 months

Sunday 20th September 2015
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99% of modern Audis (in fact the majority of the vw groups offerings) are vastly overrated, think it's a brand thing though rather than a dynamics thing and I've never really been in love with the 911, less so after having owned, underrated car I'd say the Ford Puma, they really need to get another one made.

ORD

18,086 posts

126 months

Sunday 20th September 2015
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bentley01 said:
Having owned various Porsches including a 997s bought brand new I have to agree with Justin. The Aston is so much better in many ways. Looks and sound are a given but in terms of performance the 4.7 is quicker and certainly handles as well on the twisty stuff. Yet in reality none of this really matters because owning the Aston is about so much more than mere figures. It is always an event to be in and you can get your fix just looking at it. The interior is handcrafted and the pleasure and smiles the car generates is something to behold. 911s are great cars but the Aston for me is in another league.
Must be a troll. The AM is slower even in a straight line, let alone around corners, where it is no faster than cars with 100bhp less.

bentley01

1,002 posts

135 months

Sunday 20th September 2015
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ORD said:
Must be a troll. The AM is slower even in a straight line, let alone around corners, where it is no faster than cars with 100bhp less.
What a strange post! Are you sure you are even old enough to own a car. That is such a juvenile response.

Rammy76

1,050 posts

182 months

Sunday 20th September 2015
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bentley01 said:
ORD said:
Must be a troll. The AM is slower even in a straight line, let alone around corners, where it is no faster than cars with 100bhp less.
What a strange post! Are you sure you are even old enough to own a car. That is such a juvenile response.
Given by what I've seen in other posts, it appears he will not take ANY criticism aimed at Porsche!

ORD

18,086 posts

126 months

Sunday 20th September 2015
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Rammy76 said:
bentley01 said:
ORD said:
Must be a troll. The AM is slower even in a straight line, let alone around corners, where it is no faster than cars with 100bhp less.
What a strange post! Are you sure you are even old enough to own a car. That is such a juvenile response.
Given by what I've seen in other posts, it appears he will not take ANY criticism aimed at Porsche!
Or I just correct errant nonsense. The AM is not a very fast car, so saying that it is bizarre fanboyism. I prefer Porsches; the other chap prefers AMs. Typical of PH that only my view is somehow blameworthy. English brands could bring out a diesel repmobile, call it a sports car and it would still be claimed to be better than a Porsche because it has 'soul' or is handmade.

Cracks me up when people call any interior handcrafted. Applying that to a AM is literally bonkers. Ford parts put together by a hungover 18 year old.

TameRacingDriver

18,048 posts

271 months

Sunday 20th September 2015
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Surprised it hasn't been mentioned, which means its perfect to do so on this thread, but the Reanult Sport Clio Mk1/2, I had a phase 1 172 and mk2 182, and they were fragile, didn't really handle as well as people said, had a harsh and unpleasant engine, and overall didn't feel special at all to me. Put me off Renault for life if honest.

Most underrated would be my FN2 CTR. They're not world beating but nowhere near as bad as some say, and pretty much better than the EP3 I drove a few years previous. Not as good as my DC2 but if you spend £1k on fast road setup, flashpro, brakes and panel filter and it'll be up there but a much more practical day to day proposition that also looks great even now!

Joe5y

1,501 posts

182 months

Monday 21st September 2015
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T0MMY said:
Joe5y said:
I put forward the Peugeot 306 GTi-6.

Slow, unrefined, boring, underwhelming and a Peugeot. Since it's first launch many hailed it as one of the best hot-hatches on the market and as such I wanted one. Got one, sold it after 6 months - massively 'over-rated'.
This one I really disagree with!

I'm not quite sure what contemporary rivals you're comparing it to to call it "slow", it was quicker than its direct competitors and had much better handling. What similar hot hatch of that era was better? These were great cars and frankly are probably a better driver's car than many modern equivalents. That said, if the badge and the level of refinement was ever even an issue in buying a hot hatch then you might have preferred a VAG product or something.
I don't think I was comparing it to any of it rivals. I'm also not suggesting that there was anything within the era that was better however the point of this thread was to put forward cars that were felt to be over rated of which the GTi-6 most certainly was; in my opinion.

I actually sold it to replace it with the car I miss the most and wish I had never parted with. A PH favourite in the form of a Mazda Mx5 1.8RS. This was a truly great car that was spoken very highly of, which was actually better than expectations.



Joe5y

1,501 posts

182 months

Monday 21st September 2015
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Joe5y said:
T0MMY said:
Joe5y said:
I put forward the Peugeot 306 GTi-6.

Slow, unrefined, boring, underwhelming and a Peugeot. Since it's first launch many hailed it as one of the best hot-hatches on the market and as such I wanted one. Got one, sold it after 6 months - massively 'over-rated'.
This one I really disagree with!

I'm not quite sure what contemporary rivals you're comparing it to to call it "slow", it was quicker than its direct competitors and had much better handling. What similar hot hatch of that era was better? These were great cars and frankly are probably a better driver's car than many modern equivalents. That said, if the badge and the level of refinement was ever even an issue in buying a hot hatch then you might have preferred a VAG product or something.
I don't think I was comparing it to any of it rivals. I'm also not suggesting that there was anything within the era that was better however the point of this thread was to put forward cars that were felt to be over rated of which the GTi-6 most certainly was; in my opinion.

I actually sold it to replace it with the car I miss the most and wish I had never parted with. A PH favourite in the form of a Mazda Mx5 1.8RS. This was a truly great car that was spoken very highly of, which was actually better than expectations.


In fact, the Golf in the background is more fun to drive than the GTi-6

T0MMY

1,558 posts

175 months

Monday 21st September 2015
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Joe5y said:
I don't think I was comparing it to any of it rivals. I'm also not suggesting that there was anything within the era that was better however the point of this thread was to put forward cars that were felt to be over rated of which the GTi-6 most certainly was; in my opinion.

I actually sold it to replace it with the car I miss the most and wish I had never parted with. A PH favourite in the form of a Mazda Mx5 1.8RS. This was a truly great car that was spoken very highly of, which was actually better than expectations.
Wholeheartedly agree on the MX5, great cars.

Not quite sure how you can say the Gti6 is over rated if you don't think any of it's contemporaries were better though? That basically writes off every hot hatch of that generation as rubbish! Maybe you just had a bad one? A lot ended up with knackered rear beams as I recall.

The Wookie

13,909 posts

227 months

Monday 26th September 2016
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Boing

CorvetteConvert said:
Ferrari F40. Yes really.
I got to do around 200 miles in my friend's car, in 2 stints, a month apart, on roads which should have suited it perfectly. Big lonely roads in the wilds of California (where he lives).
The fit and finish inside and out was appalling. You could actually see the outside world with the doors closed around their edges! The gearbox was poor and heavy. The clutch was very heavy and had a sudden biting point. The engine was a typical low capacity unit with two huge turbochargers which gave lag like you would not believe before a huge rush of power hit you. But because the car was not happy to rev high it was over as quick as it had arrived and so the effective power band was tiny. These things are going for a million quid each now, remember.
The kit was sparse, the engine hated going slowly and the brakes were appalling for a car expected to stop from 203 mph.
A Californian said to me that it was a race car for the road and should be viewed as such. In which case 470 bhp and 1100 kgs ain't that great is it? Not when for £100,000 you can have a 750 bhp Ultima which weighs 1,050 kgs and has better brakes, suspension, gearbox and is way faster with huge grunt from tickover.
This article/thread stuck in my mind and my memory was jogged at the weekend as I was extraordinarily fortunate enough to have a few hours driving an F40 on some nice roads

I was fully expecting to be disappointed but I have to say it was better than I ever could have possibly expected. Yes the clutch is heavy and the gearbox a bit fussy at times (particularly into 1st when moving) but it wasn't anywhere near as rattly or crude as some have said. If I had to describe it in one sentence it would be a big Elise with 70's Le Mans sound track and performance.

Superbly crisp and feelsome steering and sharp responses. The suspension travel is short but stay away from bigger potholes and, the biggest surprise for me, it glides down the road like an Evora. Get the engine above 3500rpm and it thunders round to the limiter with pace that a 458 screaming at full beans would struggle to live with.

Absolutely awesome and absolutely for me totally lived up to the iconic status. Maybe the one I drove was a good one!

culpz

4,881 posts

111 months

Tuesday 27th September 2016
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I think it can be a shame sometimes when you have high expectations of a car and then it doesn't live up to the hype. "Never meet your heroes" springs to mind and i know has been re-iterated on here a few times, no matter how much of a cliche it can sound.

It does make me question alot of cars that i've always wanted from a young age that i could now afford. The Clio 172 is a car i've always wanted ever since my mate bought one in college and gave me a few lifts in it but i've never actually driven one which could potentially leave me disappointed.

I think opinions of others, especially professional car journalists, play a huge part in this. One man's euphoria is another man's hell. Going into a test drive as neutral as possible is the way to go which is made difficult when you've already got the echoes of Chris Harris in your mind telling you it's one of the best cars on sale right now etc.

That's not a dig at any car journalists or, in fact, Mr HarrisMonkey in any way btw.

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 27th September 2016
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Flame suit on.

The MK4 golf 1.8t is a real gti,
If you remap,decat and filter it can make 230bhp easy....

Enough for a pocket rocket golf....

Sorry il go back under my rock....

daveco

4,122 posts

206 months

Tuesday 27th September 2016
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culpz said:
I think it can be a shame sometimes when you have high expectations of a car and then it doesn't live up to the hype. "Never meet your heroes" springs to mind and i know has been re-iterated on here a few times, no matter how much of a cliche it can sound.

It does make me question alot of cars that i've always wanted from a young age that i could now afford. The Clio 172 is a car i've always wanted ever since my mate bought one in college and gave me a few lifts in it but i've never actually driven one which could potentially leave me disappointed.

I think opinions of others, especially professional car journalists, play a huge part in this. One man's euphoria is another man's hell. Going into a test drive as neutral as possible is the way to go which is made difficult when you've already got the echoes of Chris Harris in your mind telling you it's one of the best cars on sale right now etc.

That's not a dig at any car journalists or, in fact, Mr HarrisMonkey in any way btw.
Agree completely. Had my heart set on buying an E46 M3. Must have test driven four different examples and I wasn't impressed; it was my dream car ever since it appeared on Evo's October issue front cover in 2000. I was coming from a 330ci and couldn't get over how much heavier the M3 felt and how agricultural the gearbox was. It really demanded you grab it by the scruff of the neck and by that point you're likely driving far too quickly.

Bear in mind this was to be my daily car and I would be doing at least 150 miles a week in it so that did cloud my judgement somewhat. Ended up going for a 335 which I now regret selling for a rubbish engined 320d.

cerb4.5lee

30,186 posts

179 months

Tuesday 27th September 2016
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daveco said:
culpz said:
I think it can be a shame sometimes when you have high expectations of a car and then it doesn't live up to the hype. "Never meet your heroes" springs to mind and i know has been re-iterated on here a few times, no matter how much of a cliche it can sound.

It does make me question alot of cars that i've always wanted from a young age that i could now afford. The Clio 172 is a car i've always wanted ever since my mate bought one in college and gave me a few lifts in it but i've never actually driven one which could potentially leave me disappointed.

I think opinions of others, especially professional car journalists, play a huge part in this. One man's euphoria is another man's hell. Going into a test drive as neutral as possible is the way to go which is made difficult when you've already got the echoes of Chris Harris in your mind telling you it's one of the best cars on sale right now etc.

That's not a dig at any car journalists or, in fact, Mr HarrisMonkey in any way btw.
Agree completely. Had my heart set on buying an E46 M3. Must have test driven four different examples and I wasn't impressed; it was my dream car ever since it appeared on Evo's October issue front cover in 2000. I was coming from a 330ci and couldn't get over how much heavier the M3 felt and how agricultural the gearbox was. It really demanded you grab it by the scruff of the neck and by that point you're likely driving far too quickly.

Bear in mind this was to be my daily car and I would be doing at least 150 miles a week in it so that did cloud my judgement somewhat. Ended up going for a 335 which I now regret selling for a rubbish engined 320d.
The exact same happened to me with my E92 M3, always wanted one and I love V8 engines and I'd watched all the videos and read the reviews...

Only for me to end up almost hating it and it taught me to never meet heroes or believe the hype for sure.

Journalists only use the cars fleetingly so have a clouded judgement, and it's only when you live with a car everyday that you really get to know it.

culpz

4,881 posts

111 months

Tuesday 27th September 2016
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cerb4.5lee said:
The exact same happened to me with my E92 M3, always wanted one and I love V8 engines and I'd watched all the videos and read the reviews...

Only for me to end up almost hating it and it taught me to never meet heroes or believe the hype for sure.

Journalists only use the cars fleetingly so have a clouded judgement, and it's only when you live with a car everyday that you really get to know it.
Funnily enough i had our last convo in mind about the E92 M3 when i commented on this. Weird eh? smile

Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

245 months

Tuesday 27th September 2016
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IMO the primary cause of "over-rating" is journalists who thrash a car for half an hour, set light to the tyres and then hand it back to the manufacturer. Their experiences/views have very little relevance for anyone who's actually going to buy the thing.

Example: Noble M600. Journalists rave about it but nobody buys it.

cerb4.5lee

30,186 posts

179 months

Tuesday 27th September 2016
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culpz said:
Funnily enough i had our last convo in mind about the E92 M3 when i commented on this. Weird eh? smile
Indeed! thumbup

Dave Hedgehog

14,541 posts

203 months

Tuesday 27th September 2016
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some nice thread necro going on here