Are 1990s "performance" cars still quick?
Discussion
s m said:
B'stard Child said:
Right now at this very min..... it's a bit damp and dark (the headlights aren't great 
) so no but I might take it out tomorrow
You're not trying to say that rain stops play surely? ) so no but I might take it out tomorrow 
FergusC said:
Technology has just moved on its that simple, a modern BMW diesel is faster than a E30 M3, it's natural progression. Compare a 90s computer with a current MacBook, technology progresses over time and the same goes for cars. As a consumer we are always asking for more, and with cars it's faster, safer and more economical.
I drove an Impreza P1 a few years ago and it was sublime, but fast, yes, but not anywhere near that of a new Golf R.
Tyres, suspension, chassis and the continued evolution of technology means that of course modern cars, be diesel or petrol or even electric are going to be faster. How a car makes you feel is what's its all about, how it moves around due to your inputs is where the pleasure, satisfaction and reward come from.
You could drive round the Nurburgring on Forza at an average speed of totally mental, or you could drive it for real in a 90s 205 XS at the square route of nothing and have a seriously interactive rewarding experience.
At 6/10s 90s performance cars would involve, now you need to be at 9/10s in modern cars to feel like something vaguely thrilling is going on.
So to summarise of course modern cars are faster, but it's not all about speed it's about driver involvement and old fashioned skill!
You don't say a lot.I drove an Impreza P1 a few years ago and it was sublime, but fast, yes, but not anywhere near that of a new Golf R.
Tyres, suspension, chassis and the continued evolution of technology means that of course modern cars, be diesel or petrol or even electric are going to be faster. How a car makes you feel is what's its all about, how it moves around due to your inputs is where the pleasure, satisfaction and reward come from.
You could drive round the Nurburgring on Forza at an average speed of totally mental, or you could drive it for real in a 90s 205 XS at the square route of nothing and have a seriously interactive rewarding experience.
At 6/10s 90s performance cars would involve, now you need to be at 9/10s in modern cars to feel like something vaguely thrilling is going on.
So to summarise of course modern cars are faster, but it's not all about speed it's about driver involvement and old fashioned skill!
Quality.
I drive a black 98 V8 XJR.
I can honestly say it is genuinely rapid to 60 (5.1sec) & if I am going along the road @ 40mph for example & floor it, it is truly ballistic...I find it hard to believe that a modern hot hatch is quicker (even though some are)...
It's also worth remembering that who cares if a car does 2 squidillion mp/h...What counts is acceleration when you need it. For me, I have that in abundance..+ it's a looker : )....Such class in a swift glass...
I can honestly say it is genuinely rapid to 60 (5.1sec) & if I am going along the road @ 40mph for example & floor it, it is truly ballistic...I find it hard to believe that a modern hot hatch is quicker (even though some are)...
It's also worth remembering that who cares if a car does 2 squidillion mp/h...What counts is acceleration when you need it. For me, I have that in abundance..+ it's a looker : )....Such class in a swift glass...
King Steffy said:
I drive a black 98 V8 XJR.
I can honestly say it is genuinely rapid to 60 (5.1sec) & if I am going along the road @ 40mph for example & floor it, it is truly ballistic...I find it hard to believe that a modern hot hatch is quicker (even though some are)...
It's also worth remembering that who cares if a car does 2 squidillion mp/h...What counts is acceleration when you need it. For me, I have that in abundance..+ it's a looker : )....Such class in a swift glass...
Plus, you feel like a million quid every time you get into it I can honestly say it is genuinely rapid to 60 (5.1sec) & if I am going along the road @ 40mph for example & floor it, it is truly ballistic...I find it hard to believe that a modern hot hatch is quicker (even though some are)...
It's also worth remembering that who cares if a car does 2 squidillion mp/h...What counts is acceleration when you need it. For me, I have that in abundance..+ it's a looker : )....Such class in a swift glass...
Depends on the road. On normal roads, the modern cars pull away from you. On the kind of roads where I live (see pic), the modern stuff is let down by their poor suspension travel, their extra weight (kills you on corners), their too-low stance, their tramlining wide tyres, their lack of steering feel, their electronic-nannies - all meaning their undoubted torque/power advantage mostly counts for little. On the sh**iest back roads, in my repeated experience, flash modern cars and their computer-assisted drivers are prey ... sadly, everywhere else, they stroll away from you like you're stopped! 
tommy1973s said:
Depends on the road. On normal roads, the modern cars pull away from you. On the kind of roads where I live (see pic), the modern stuff is let down by their poor suspension travel, their extra weight (kills you on corners), their too-low stance, their tramlining wide tyres, their lack of steering feel, their electronic-nannies - all meaning their undoubted torque/power advantage mostly counts for little. On the sh**iest back roads, in my repeated experience, flash modern cars and their computer-assisted drivers are prey ... sadly, everywhere else, they stroll away from you like you're stopped!
let's not get too high and mighty now...I see that's a VAG product that's airbourne.
ETA
Edited by tumble dryer on Thursday 24th September 23:26
white_goodman said:
This isn't intended to be another "fings ain't what they used to be" style thread but I'm just thinking of some of the "older" performance cars that my friends and I owned back in the day in our early 20s such as:
205/309 GTis
306 Rallye/GTi-6
Primera eGTs
Civic 1.6i-16
BMW 325is (E30)
Volvo 440 Turbo
Corrado VR6s
They all felt pretty bloody quick back in the day to be honest but the argument I hear trotted out nowadays is that none of these would see which way a modern diesel repmobile went and the relatively modest power and torque outputs would seem to support that.
Even my modern "mid-spec" Civic puts out 143bhp from its 1.8 litre petrol engine (more than a 205/309 GTi, Golf GTi 16v or Renault Clio/19 16v) but I can't say it feels that quick, whereas those cars did. Even some modern cars with 200bhp+ don't necessarily feel that quick.
So, I guess what I'm asking is, would a well-driven 205 GTi/Golf GTi 16v still be able to keep say a modern 320d "honest" cross country or would they really not see which way it went.
Are these cars really that slow by today's standards or did lighter weight, less refinement and gearing more geared towards performance rather than fuel economy and emissions "fool" us into thinking that they were a lot quicker than they were?
I purchased a 205 gti 1.9 not long ago ..to relive memories of youth . 205/309 GTis
306 Rallye/GTi-6
Primera eGTs
Civic 1.6i-16
BMW 325is (E30)
Volvo 440 Turbo
Corrado VR6s
They all felt pretty bloody quick back in the day to be honest but the argument I hear trotted out nowadays is that none of these would see which way a modern diesel repmobile went and the relatively modest power and torque outputs would seem to support that.
Even my modern "mid-spec" Civic puts out 143bhp from its 1.8 litre petrol engine (more than a 205/309 GTi, Golf GTi 16v or Renault Clio/19 16v) but I can't say it feels that quick, whereas those cars did. Even some modern cars with 200bhp+ don't necessarily feel that quick.
So, I guess what I'm asking is, would a well-driven 205 GTi/Golf GTi 16v still be able to keep say a modern 320d "honest" cross country or would they really not see which way it went.
Are these cars really that slow by today's standards or did lighter weight, less refinement and gearing more geared towards performance rather than fuel economy and emissions "fool" us into thinking that they were a lot quicker than they were?
I found its get up and go was not to bad ..it could live with most things up to about 30 mph ... then not enough grunt .
but it was hard for friends to keep up on twisty b roads ..roundabouts and on dirt roads it also came alive !
so i would say a lot of these cars we used to love ..would loose out on motorways to diesel reps .
but through small towns , twisty roads , dirt roads there is so much more feeling from wheels ..you can keep power on all the time .
as some of more modern cars I've driven tend to be a bit aim then squirt , brake hard , aim squirt .
different ways of driving .. i think i prefer less power and gokart feeling
tommy1973s said:
Depends on the road. On normal roads, the modern cars pull away from you. On the kind of roads where I live (see pic), the modern stuff is let down by their poor suspension travel, their extra weight (kills you on corners), their too-low stance, their tramlining wide tyres, their lack of steering feel, their electronic-nannies - all meaning their undoubted torque/power advantage mostly counts for little. On the sh**iest back roads, in my repeated experience, flash modern cars and their computer-assisted drivers are prey ... sadly, everywhere else, they stroll away from you like you're stopped!
This is also where good old permanent 4WD eats those haldex boys for breakfast 
.japaneseskoda said:
My 95 MR2 Rev3 Turbo with mild mods will give most things a run for their money upto 80ish mph when it begins (literally) to take off. Seriously, off a roundabout and full on foot to the floor acceleration very little will outrun it in the legal zones.
Exactly what sprang to my mind when I read the headline article!Even a standard MR2 Turbo remains a very quick car and in acceleration terms is pretty eye opening.
That said, they take a lot of skill and balls to hustle through the twisties at speed.
Hol said:
The same as the Enos 1-3, the Supra TwinTurbo, the GTO Twin & the Impreza STI 1-3 all of which we're imported in low volumes by private individuals until the yen was low enough and they were old enough to make it attractive.
4second 0-60 standard spec cars were all over the place when the grey markets did open up though. Easily enough to hold back the 2015 Golf R mentioned earlier.
The numbers only tell half the story with the Golf R as I found out recently.4second 0-60 standard spec cars were all over the place when the grey markets did open up though. Easily enough to hold back the 2015 Golf R mentioned earlier.
Edited by Hol on Sunday 13th September 19:46
The Golf R is preposterously quick. A few weeks ago on one of the Petrolhead Nirvana tours the boys in the Golf R were nipping at the heels of supercars all week through the Alps. Hats off to the drivers too of course as it wasn't just about the car, but still a very very fast car in all respects that is quicker than even the numbers suggest. It was accelerating harder in a straight line than the RS4 that was on the same trip, which made all of our heads hurt as it simply should not be possible.
Not my sort of car but mightily impressive and cannot imagine anything from the nineties being able to shak eit off throughh the twisties.
James Junior said:
Hol said:
The same as the Enos 1-3, the Supra TwinTurbo, the GTO Twin & the Impreza STI 1-3 all of which we're imported in low volumes by private individuals until the yen was low enough and they were old enough to make it attractive.
4second 0-60 standard spec cars were all over the place when the grey markets did open up though. Easily enough to hold back the 2015 Golf R mentioned earlier.
The numbers only tell half the story with the Golf R as I found out recently.4second 0-60 standard spec cars were all over the place when the grey markets did open up though. Easily enough to hold back the 2015 Golf R mentioned earlier.
Edited by Hol on Sunday 13th September 19:46
The Golf R is preposterously quick. A few weeks ago on one of the Petrolhead Nirvana tours the boys in the Golf R were nipping at the heels of supercars all week through the Alps. Hats off to the drivers too of course as it wasn't just about the car, but still a very very fast car in all respects that is quicker than even the numbers suggest. It was accelerating harder in a straight line than the RS4 that was on the same trip, which made all of our heads hurt as it simply should not be possible.
Not my sort of car but mightily impressive and cannot imagine anything from the nineties being able to shak eit off throughh the twisties.
I have a late Escort Cosworth, the one with the smaller turbo. Standard car, although it does 240hp on the RR - it would have felt quick in the day due to no lag and 4wd, but now it doesn't really.
We have a Focus Titanium TDCI, and whilst off the line the Escort leaves it, the in-gear acceleration is close. I've just sold a Clio 172 that was modded to 197hp, and that did keep up with it until around 90mph.
Interestingly, I recently took a mate out who had a 2007 Audi S3 - I think they are 250hp? Anyway, he said that the 11 year older Escort did feel as quick as the S3.
Good topic this.
We have a Focus Titanium TDCI, and whilst off the line the Escort leaves it, the in-gear acceleration is close. I've just sold a Clio 172 that was modded to 197hp, and that did keep up with it until around 90mph.
Interestingly, I recently took a mate out who had a 2007 Audi S3 - I think they are 250hp? Anyway, he said that the 11 year older Escort did feel as quick as the S3.
Good topic this.
SO do you think safety is an element of how fast modern cars 'feel'?
I used to have a Fiat Coupe running about 280bhp, and that felt fast, often because at any point of ITS choosing it was likely to send you flying off into a tree, which made it exciting to drive. Any modern car, and lets face it, most similar powered cars of the same period had much better manners, were just as quick, but the safe feeling those other cars exude, made them feel slower.
I used to have a Fiat Coupe running about 280bhp, and that felt fast, often because at any point of ITS choosing it was likely to send you flying off into a tree, which made it exciting to drive. Any modern car, and lets face it, most similar powered cars of the same period had much better manners, were just as quick, but the safe feeling those other cars exude, made them feel slower.
Edited by JulianGR1 on Friday 25th September 09:21
JulianGR1 said:
SO do you think safety is an element of how fast modern cars 'feel'?
I used to have a Fiat Coupe running about 280bhp, and that felt fast, often because at any point of ITS choosing it was likely to send you flying off into a tree, which made it exciting to drive. Any modern car, and lets face it, most similar powered cars of the same period had much better manners, were just as quick, but the safe felling those other cars exude, made them feel slower.
Has quite a lot to do with it. Cars are becoming quieter and more sophisticated, thus removing most visceral senses, including speed.I used to have a Fiat Coupe running about 280bhp, and that felt fast, often because at any point of ITS choosing it was likely to send you flying off into a tree, which made it exciting to drive. Any modern car, and lets face it, most similar powered cars of the same period had much better manners, were just as quick, but the safe felling those other cars exude, made them feel slower.
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