Are 1990s "performance" cars still quick?

[chris watton]

I read and enjoy quite a few threads like this.

I am wondering, does 'faster' always equate to 'better'?

I don't think it does. I have now read quite a few comments from people disappointed with their latest 4-500bhp car, mainly due to lack of 'feel' or 'involvement' - I guess in older cars, the driver is less cosseted and if mistakes are made, it is down to the driver, and not the latest swanky ECB et

There is mention of one car model being 350kg heavier than its predecessors - do you know just how heavy 350kg is? Many would not even be able to lift half that off the floor!

[e21Mark]

chris watton said:

I read and enjoy quite a few threads like this.

I am wondering, does 'faster' always equate to 'better'?

I don't think it does. I have now read quite a few comments from people disappointed with their latest 4-500bhp car, mainly due to lack of 'feel' or 'involvement' - I guess in older cars, the driver is less cosseted and if mistakes are made, it is down to the driver, and not the latest swanky ECB et

There is mention of one car model being 350kg heavier than its predecessors - do you know just how heavy 350kg is? Many would not even be able to lift half that off the floor!

It'd be like having 3 passengers.

Modern cars are just too big and then they fill them with all the crap modern folk just can't live without. Then you get to pay to lug it all around with you.

[RobM77]

To be fair, even in the 90s I wouldn't really refer to the OP's list as performance cars. However, as stated above, speed isn't everything and I would far rather drive a 90s performance car than a modern day one. Cable throttle vs drive by wire, isolation vs interaction, DSC & TC vs nothing - superb!

Personally I think the 90s was the high point of road cars - just before the electronics started to take over. Think of the cars available then: Honda NSX, McLaren F1, Porsche 968, Integra Type R, Lotus Elise S1 and S2, Exige S1 and S2, Ferrari 355 & 550, Peugeot 205 GTi, Renault Clio Williams... With the possible exception of the Lotuses, I'd rather drive any of those than their modern day equivalents. Most of the great performance cars hailed from the 90s.

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 14th September 09:36

[Patch888]

I remember my old house mates pulsar GTIR feeling pretty damn rapid. Reliable it wasn't, but it was fast for a 90's hatch.

[chris watton]

e21Mark said:

It'd be like having 3 passengers.

Modern cars are just too big and then they fill them with all the crap modern folk just can't live without. Then you get to pay to lug it all around with you.

That would be 3 obese passengers (or burly rugby players) - or almost 5 at my weight!

I guess for me, the cold numbers are just a small part of the story (we see many quoting these numbers to help justify that their car is better than its rivals, usually the latest lardy hot hatch), it's how the car makes you feel when driving it that's as, if not more important.

[jamieduff1981]

The older cars will still feel fast because the workload increases more rapidly with increasing speed than modern cars do.

The shove in the back will be a little less in most cases, but the older ones will need more steering input and more management of the pedals. Different surfaces will have more effect on the car.

If you're comparing from outside the cars the newer one will very likely be quicker in every way, but it'll also be much easier to drive quicker and therefore be less engaging/involving/fun/quick feeling.

[CRA1G]

I had my Z3M Coupe out this weekend and what a joy,and still puts a smile on my face.. it so small and compact with 321 BHP there's nothing modern that really compares to it and a million miles away from the i8 and dare i say more fun..!

[IanCress]

heebeegeetee said:

I reckon the old cars would get from A-B in much the same time as the new cars.

A while back 5th Gear put an original Golf GTi up against the latest Mk 6 or 7 GTi. Obviously the new car was much quicker in a straight line, but the surprise was that the much bigger and heavier modern car was still far quicker on the slalom course.

The Mk1 Golf looked like a lot of fun, rolling in to oversteer and lifting a rear wheel, but it was far behind the modern equivalent. Modern tyres and suspension are so much better now than they were 30 years ago.

[Welshbeef]

ikarl said:

Welshbeef said:

The 300bhp 535d the latest one is 313bhp so is faster than this.
http://fastestlaps.com/cars/bmw_535d.html

http://fastestlaps.com/cars/toyota_supra_twin_turb...

Murder ??? At best it might be 0.5-1car length ahead by 100mph from a standing start which is not the 535d's party piece yet is the Supras.
Top speed Supra maxes out at what the 535d is limited to so again no murderinf in fact take the limiter off and it would go faster Supra cannot.

Erm, think you're confusing the limiter on a Supra with the top speed, the Supra was limited to 155, but could see 170 on stock power.

The 535d, from my quick google, is seemingly limited to 130 - http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/video-chris-...

A Fabia vRS TDI will do 130mph all day long.

The E90 330d 231bhp my personal old car would sit at the 155mph limiter I think it indicates 160mph on he speedo - not that I looked at the speedo at that speed very much.

The F10 D5 is limited to 175mph and the F10 535d is limited to 155mph - take the limiter off and it will go higher. Probably not too dissimilar to the Supras top speed.
However it's kind of irrelevant as who drives at top speed in the UK infact anywhere in the world apart from Germany?

[loose cannon]

zygalski said:

My Astra regularly surpises members of the Audi/BMW/VW 2.0l hire purchase repmobile club.
Up my backside in a light traffic, wait for it to clear, floor it & pull in to the left hand lane & watch the intense frustration in the rear view mirror as the tailgater makes no progress whatsoever
135mph & 0-60 was had in 7.0 by some testers back in the day.

y
My gte 16v was fairly quicker than my m8's seat Leon Cupar r that was mapped to 280 bhp by a reputable vag tuner,were going back to when the Leon was 2 years old so quite some time ago now, the gte had a superchips chip from back in the day, I bought the gte as a garage queen to relive my youth, it pissed off quite a lot of modern cars including Honda S2000 which gave great satisfaction and Inraged quite a few people at the time, especially as most of them baited me in the first place whilst laughing at the fact I was driving a chav mobile, well until they got left in its wake
My Megane rs is faster than my tvr maybe not from a rolling start but once rolling the tvr wont keep up
Though it has more power than the tvr had from the factory and its mapped but for a couple of hundred quid an extra 50 bhp is a no brainier

Edited by loose cannon on Monday 14th September 11:13

[chris watton]

Welshbeef said:

A Fabia vRS TDI will do 130mph all day long.

But really, would you want to?

[ORD]

chris watton said:

But really, would you want to?

I also doubt it would do 130 "all day long". I doubt it has the cooling to cope with that speed for a couple of hours, let alone 24

Back on topic, one of the reasons older casts feel faster is that they were simply less capable in all respects, not just straight line speed. Less grip, worse damping, relatively crude suspension generally, etc etc. We all love old cars, but a 1990s car would be eaten alive by the motoring press and the general public if released now. It would also get trounced on PH, to be honest, for being slow.

The MX5 is far more like a 1990s car than most, as is the GT86. Neither is well loved on here!

[GC8]

Hol said:

HonestIago said:

GC8 said:

Even a UK Classic GC8 is still a quick point to point car, by any standards.

Indeed, I used to run a 300bhp classic (admittedly not a standard car) as a daily and recently had the chance to drive a DSG Golf R for comparison. I found the scoob more compliant and confidence inspiring even if maybe not necessarily any quicker in a straight line. A well set up classic Impreza will always be a very competitive B-road performer IMO.

If I remember correctly, the detuned 1999 UK2000 version of the impreza still hit 0-60 in 5.3 or 5.4 seconds?

Where as the 1999 Sti Type R/RA hit 0-60 in 4.3 Seconds and the V5/6 EVO's was just a little slower.

Both of those numbers are for boggo standard cars and both stack up quite well to the modern 2.0turbo AWD alternatives 16 years on: (Golf R, AMG A45, RS3, etc..)

And that's before we even get to the corners...

[RobM77]

GC8 said:

Hol said:

HonestIago said:

GC8 said:

Even a UK Classic GC8 is still a quick point to point car, by any standards.

Indeed, I used to run a 300bhp classic (admittedly not a standard car) as a daily and recently had the chance to drive a DSG Golf R for comparison. I found the scoob more compliant and confidence inspiring even if maybe not necessarily any quicker in a straight line. A well set up classic Impreza will always be a very competitive B-road performer IMO.

If I remember correctly, the detuned 1999 UK2000 version of the impreza still hit 0-60 in 5.3 or 5.4 seconds?

Where as the 1999 Sti Type R/RA hit 0-60 in 4.3 Seconds and the V5/6 EVO's was just a little slower.

Both of those numbers are for boggo standard cars and both stack up quite well to the modern 2.0turbo AWD alternatives 16 years on: (Golf R, AMG A45, RS3, etc..)

And that's before we even get to the corners...

If my memory serves me correctly, those figures for the 1999 2000 model were one-up magazine figures and you're comparing those with book figures for the modern cars (i.e. passenger, luggage and fuel). To compare like with like, the book figure on the 1999 Impreza, again if my memory serves me correctly, wasn't as quick. I would expect about a second to 60 difference to the modern stuff. As above, tyres and dampers have moved on a lot since then, as have clever 4WD systems. As I wrote above though, I'd still rather drive the 1990s car

[Bradley1500]

Cars have come a long way since the selection of cars in the OP were considered fast.

My friend has a 205 GTI which won’t see which way my Civic Type R EP3 went, modern hot hatches such as a Golf R would embarrass it. What most modern hatches won’t do though is give the same grin you get from driving the 205. The combination of a light weight and nimble chassis with an engine which loves and needs to be revved to get the best from it, is a joy.

iKarl noted more serious performance cars from the same period as the 205, which even by today’s standard most would consider fast. If you take a Nissan Skyline for example, it is still a very competent car, however if you compare it to its modern day equivalent, the Nissan GTR, the newer car is simply in a different league.

[Barronmr]

swerni said:

Barronmr said:

swerni said:

i know and you said
"Seriously, off a roundabout and full on foot to the floor acceleration very little will outrun it in the legal zones"

I was pointing out that this was wrong, lots will

I disagree. A manual boost controller bypasses the stock mr2's ECU's boost limits, (peak limit and 1st/2nd gear limits). So 0-60 is now 4.5s and 1/4mile is 12.8 .

I don't know how you define lots, sure odd GTR etc... but I wouldn't say lots that can go from 20-70 much quicker unless your counting bikes.

but his doesn't have that and doesn't do that

Stick a JATO engine to the back and it will spank anything, it doesn't have one of those either

Costs £15 and most mr2's will have this modification or something to that effect. Not like I shifted the goal posts that far.

[P-Jay]

More to it that power/weight and 0-60 times though isn't it?

I seem to recall Tiff Needell tested some older performance cars a few years ago - an E30 M3 and a Lacia Interwhatsist Evo around their test track - which are admittedly both late 80's cars - on paper they're both 0-60 in low 6's 150mphish cars, but they pretty much matched the time of a Ford SportKa which was not exactly known for being a speed machine in the mid-2000s.

My old Golf VR6 was pretty fast by 90s standards, my boring family diesel estate is a second slower to 60 on paper, but I know it wouldn't see where is went on anything but a drag strip, car have such a huge amount of grip these days.

[Steve_F]

Back in 2006 I had a Leon Cupra T, 180bhp. Knew a guy who had a 205 gti (probably the 1.6), we both came off a roundabout me slightly behind and there was no problem at all passing it.

Was a bit gutted at the time, banter was good next time we chatted but I'd hoped the gti would've been quicker.

When I had a 1994 850 T5-R I saw a big diesel cloud out of the back of a Vectra showing he'd floored it, was probably the 150bhp model, my mate took the mick out of me a bit that I could only very slightly gain on a diesel Vectra when I floored it too.

[GC8]

'Swerni': you aren't coming across very well.

With regards to manual boost controllers - doesn't £15 just buy you a nasty bleed-off valve?

[mickyveloce]

All things are, of course, relative.

I have run a 1996 C36 AMG for the past 9 years, and find it offers not only accessible and adequate performance, but more importantly, accessible fun and driver satisfaction.

More (modest) moderns would be quicker in some situations with an average driver, as they are hard-wired to resolve mistakes made by the person behind the wheel, but my car, without traction control etc, rewards skillful driving when making progress.

For me, it's quick, fun and relevant, despite it's 19 years.