VW in trouble over alleged US emission test manipulations

[ORD]

mollytherocker said:

ORD said:

mollytherocker said:

Er....they already do! Most companies double shift their fleet, its the only way to compete.

I see A LOT of lorries around during the day. If running almost all deliveries at night means buying more lorries and employing more drivers, that's the cost of reducing pollution and congestion. And it will be smeared across the cost of products in shops, which is a sensible result.

By all means, come and join me in the transport and logistics industry. I have been doing it for 25 years. Its bloody hard.

Unfortunately, your comments are naive like many peoples. I am surprised you haven't mentioned the other classic about why its not all done by train.....

You want to reduce transport polution? Its easy. Buy local produce. We could all halve commercial transport polution overnight.

But no, mushrooms are cheaper from Poland aren't they....

Sounds dull as st, with respect!

In seriousness, surely more could be done at night; it would just be more expensive to do it that way. I think that is more sensible than introducing huge inefficiencies by having people in the South East grow mushrooms rather than sell financial products. A Prince Charlesesque "localism" drive is a one-way ticket to poverty.

[mollytherocker]

ORD said:

Sounds dull as st, with respect!

In seriousness, surely more could be done at night; it would just be more expensive to do it that way. I think that is more sensible than introducing huge inefficiencies by having people in the South East grow mushrooms rather than sell financial products. A Prince Charlesesque "localism" drive is a one-way ticket to poverty.

I have already explained that most companies double shift their fleets, they run night AND day! They have to for efficiency.

Are you suggesting we double the amount of trucks and park them up in the day!

[ORD]

mollytherocker said:

ORD said:

Sounds dull as st, with respect!

In seriousness, surely more could be done at night; it would just be more expensive to do it that way. I think that is more sensible than introducing huge inefficiencies by having people in the South East grow mushrooms rather than sell financial products. A Prince Charlesesque "localism" drive is a one-way ticket to poverty.

I have already explained that most companies double shift their fleets, they run night AND day! They have to for efficiency.

Are you suggesting we double the amount of trucks and park them up in the day!

Yes. Brilliant idea, huh? You need not credit me for it.

[Willy Nilly]

ORD said:

Sounds dull as st, with respect!

In seriousness, surely more could be done at night; it would just be more expensive to do it that way. I think that is more sensible than introducing huge inefficiencies by having people in the South East grow mushrooms rather than sell financial products. A Prince Charlesesque "localism" drive is a one-way ticket to poverty.

most places lorries collect from work days and most places they deliver to do too. You are only going to be able to take a hand full of vehicles off the road.

[mollytherocker]

Willy Nilly said:

most places lorries collect from work days and most places they deliver to do too. You are only going to be able to take a hand full of vehicles off the road.

No, he cant take ANY off the road! I can assure you that the industry already does as much as is humanly possible at night!

It continues to increase of course with our 24 hour culture.

[M4cruiser]

Ozzie Osmond said:

yonex said:

I'm sure the simple software upgrade will appease all the legal teams preparing their cases against VW

Cases for what exactly? I struggle to see any liability.

Well, I'm wondering which way the software change will go ....
(1) Will it make the MoT Emissions test as dirty as the cars normally are?
or
(2) Will it make the normal driving as clean as the (cheated) emissions test?

If (1) will it pass the MoT when it's done? Will the car now be in a higher road-tax bracket, and who will pay the underpaid tax?

if (2) Will the performance (and mpg) be a lot worse?

Looks like there's still a lot of fall-out to come. There's 1.2 million of these cars in the UK, suppose they are an average of 3 years old, and they should have been paying say £120 instead of £20, that's £300 per car over the 3 years, that's £360 million VW owe the British government.

Also, cars like the Bluemotion diesel were sold on Co2 and mpg to justify the higher price, so basically the only reason for buying them was Co2 and mpg, so if that gets compromised - a lot of unhappy owners.

[Roo]

mollytherocker said:

I have already explained that most companies double shift their fleets, they run night AND day! They have to for efficiency.

Are you suggesting we double the amount of trucks and park them up in the day!

The amount of double shift lorries you see in the south east is incredible. It's the only way to get goods to shops at a price the customer will pay.

I don't envy your job.

[Flibble]

M4cruiser said:

Well, I'm wondering which way the software change will go ....
(1) Will it make the MoT Emissions test as dirty as the cars normally are?
or
(2) Will it make the normal driving as clean as the (cheated) emissions test?

If (1) will it pass the MoT when it's done? Will the car now be in a higher road-tax bracket, and who will pay the underpaid tax?

if (2) Will the performance (and mpg) be a lot worse?

The MOT doesn't test NOx, so it will make no difference to the test.
I think the idea is to make the cars clean all the time (as that is what their type approval is for).

[Pan Pan Pan]

M4cruiser said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

yonex said:

I'm sure the simple software upgrade will appease all the legal teams preparing their cases against VW

Cases for what exactly? I struggle to see any liability.

Well, I'm wondering which way the software change will go ....
(1) Will it make the MoT Emissions test as dirty as the cars normally are?
or
(2) Will it make the normal driving as clean as the (cheated) emissions test?

If (1) will it pass the MoT when it's done? Will the car now be in a higher road-tax bracket, and who will pay the underpaid tax?

if (2) Will the performance (and mpg) be a lot worse?

Looks like there's still a lot of fall-out to come. There's 1.2 million of these cars in the UK, suppose they are an average of 3 years old, and they should have been paying say £120 instead of £20, that's £300 per car over the 3 years, that's £360 million VW owe the British government.

Also, cars like the Bluemotion diesel were sold on Co2 and mpg to justify the higher price, so basically the only reason for buying them was Co2 and mpg, so if that gets compromised - a lot of unhappy owners.

I am guessing that the type approval for each vehicle petrol or diesel (type) sets the parameters used for each different vehicle`s allowable emissions during the MOT test, as engines from different manufacturers are not the same. NOX is not currently tested for, but the rules are changing to include this for both diesel and petrol cars in 2017 I think.
Since we have not heard of a wave of diesel cars failing to comply with CO2 emissions, during MOT tests, they must generally be passing this part of the MOT without a problem.
The VW`s fitted with a cheat device, may however not pass, once they have been adjusted, time will tell, but it seems the government are not going to change the taxation rules for VW drivers who have current cars which were fitted with the cheat device. Not all of them were so fitted, as far as European cars are concerned.
Whether the `adjustments' VW are going to have to make to cars fitted with the cheat device will make a big difference to how the cars drive, and what their mpg / CO2 figures finally end up as, only time will tell.
The VED for most is around 100 pounds a year, I don't know of any that are so emissions efficient they only have to pay 20 pounds. So it wont make much difference in what the government takes off VW drivers in VED either way.

Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Thursday 8th October 05:56

[The Hypno-Toad]

Ali_T said:

The Hypno-Toad said:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/new-vw-...

“We will review all planned investments, and what isn’t absolutely vital will be cancelled or delayed. I will be completely clear: this won’t be painless.”

I would guess that pretty much confirms what I suggested a few pages back.

Bye-Bye Bugatti.

Bye-Bye Red Bull F1 deal.

Bye-Bye Audi or Porsche Le Mans teams. (possibly both.)

Bye-Bye.

I wonder if this puts either Skoda or, more likely, Seat in jeopardy? I can see them offloading Lambo and Ducati as well.

As I mentioned further back, I think they will concentrate on the core businesses, which are VW, Audi & Porsche. If they decide to get rid of Ducati, Bentley and Lambo I would guess that Ducati will probably go straight to who ever is looking after Ferrari but the other two would be much more difficult to shift as both of them are full of very recent VAG group tech (especially Lambo) which the board might not be keen to fall into enemy hands.

The two problem children are Skoda and SEAT. I can't see anybody coming forward to buy them and they might have to be the sacrificial lambs to appease the markets and the German taxpayer.

[pfnsht]

What confuses me is how some of the same model of cars are fitted with the device and some are not. Take my car for example - 2013 Seat Exeo 170ps. It is affected.

However take a selection of 2010/2011/2012/2013 Exeo models of the same car and some have the device and some do not (source: Seat Cupra net forum & owners feedback).

How can the same car that surely has to apply with the same type approvals be both equipped with the device and not equipped with the device; surely the ones that do not have it would not pass an emissions test either if they are making the same power/torque etc.

If not then i'll just have a map from one if the unaffected vehicles please, they drive the same as mine and make the same power/torque.

[Gilbertd]

Pan Pan Pan said:

NOX is not currently tested for, but the rules are changing to include this for both diesel and petrol cars in 2017 I think.
Since we have not heard of a wave of diesel cars failing to comply with CO2 emissions, during MOT tests, they must generally be passing this part of the MOT without a problem.

They won't fail on either NOx or CO2 as neither are tested. The only thing the MoT tests for on a diesel is smoke, see http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_740.htm

[Super Slo Mo]

Roo said:

mollytherocker said:

I have already explained that most companies double shift their fleets, they run night AND day! They have to for efficiency.

Are you suggesting we double the amount of trucks and park them up in the day!

The amount of double shift lorries you see in the south east is incredible. It's the only way to get goods to shops at a price the customer will pay.

I don't envy your job.

We'd have to triple the uk fleet to do it all at night. And drop all the restrictions that are in place regards delivering to stores at night. It won't happen there are too many NIMBYs, we used to have a massive headache trying to schedule deliveries at times that didn't contravene restrictions in urban areas.
To give an idea of the scale, we had over 5,000 urban stores to deliver to in the uk, and we were only going to independents, so that excluded the small convenience stores ran by the major brands.

Also, thinking about it, cars outnumber trucks by at least 70 to 1 so if we're looking for ways to cut congestion I can think of easier and more effective ways than trying to make all HGV movements a nightly thing.

[jaynana]

and, here's what the others are saying..

[loose cannon]

VW boss just off to capital hill today for a large kicking
Also now the possibility they have been miss reporting death and injury incidents to the us regulator oops !

Edited by loose cannon on Thursday 8th October 12:15

[Pan Pan Pan]

Gilbertd said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

NOX is not currently tested for, but the rules are changing to include this for both diesel and petrol cars in 2017 I think.
Since we have not heard of a wave of diesel cars failing to comply with CO2 emissions, during MOT tests, they must generally be passing this part of the MOT without a problem.

They won't fail on either NOx or CO2 as neither are tested. The only thing the MoT tests for on a diesel is smoke, see http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_740.htm

Euro 5 does set limits for max CO2 emissions for both petrol and diesel engines with the one for diesel being more onerous, at half that allowed for petrol engines, therefore not sure why diesel engines are not tested for CO2 in the MOT. It would seem they should be if they have a CO2 limit as set out in Euro 5.
Since modern diesels have DPF filters, and since few it appears are failing on visible smoke emissions, It would seem that they are meeting the requirements of legislation on emissions. Whether those VW vehicles which were fitted with the cheat device can still do so `after' they have been corrected, remains to be seen.

[Fastdruid]

Pan Pan Pan said:

Euro 5 does set limits for max CO2 emissions for both petrol and diesel engines with the one for diesel being more onerous, at half that allowed for petrol engines, therefore not sure why diesel engines are not tested for CO2 in the MOT. It would seem they should be if they have a CO2 limit as set out in Euro 5.

No it doesn't. Unless you are getting confused with Carbon Monoxide. (which does have a limit which is half petrol's limit).

There is a *target* and an average (across all a manufacturers vehicles) but nothing for the Euro emissions standards.

[unpc]

The Hypno-Toad said:

but the other two would be much more difficult to shift as both of them are full of very recent VAG group tech (especially Lambo) which the board might not be keen to fall into enemy hands.

What? You mean stuff that's on sale to the general public that any other manufacturer could buy and reverse engineer? How is life under that tin foil hat?

[GroundEffect]

unpc said:

The Hypno-Toad said:

but the other two would be much more difficult to shift as both of them are full of very recent VAG group tech (especially Lambo) which the board might not be keen to fall into enemy hands.

What? You mean stuff that's on sale to the general public that any other manufacturer could buy and reverse engineer? How is life under that tin foil hat?

That's very different from being given the prints or the software...

[EskimoArapaho]

GroundEffect said:

unpc said:

The Hypno-Toad said:

but the other two would be much more difficult to shift as both of them are full of very recent VAG group tech (especially Lambo) which the board might not be keen to fall into enemy hands.

What? You mean stuff that's on sale to the general public that any other manufacturer could buy and reverse engineer? How is life under that tin foil hat?

That's very different from being given the prints or the software...

It would best be sold with a licence for whatever VAG technology was absolutely required - perhaps for a limited term. Or even just crated parts and seconded staff. So whoever bought Lamborghini could carry on selling the current range, and then introduce completely new tech/cars.