VW in trouble over alleged US emission test manipulations

[ORD]

DonkeyApple said:

They've been in the abyss for over a decade and no one lead them, they hurled themselves willingly for the worship of ShinyShiny.

When you got most middle class people living for the monthly pay check to meet their debt obligations, begging for State handouts and generally living like one great episode of Brookside yet deluding themselves that they have more in common with Downton Abbey then I think it's fair to say they're already fked.

It would be so funny if it were not so sad. Sad for those people and sad for those of us who will have to pay 75% tax (at a minimum) for a while to dig us out of the next recession.

[Jimmy Recard]

This would never happen, but I'm sure people are taking advantage of good deals on Volkswagen group products following this news.

I feel that if it turns out (following an investigation) that tax bands should be modified on any of those cars, the owners should be liable for any discrepancy as they've chosen to buy it in the knowledge that there is something amiss regarding emissions and therefore possibly tax.

Maybe I'm just vindictive though....

[FiF]

And the investigation widens.

The Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt (KBA) regulator said on Wednesday it would run tests on models made by 23 German and foreign car brands on suspicion of further manipulation of nitrogen oxides emissions.

Diesel car brands being investigated by KBA

BMW: 3 Series, 5 Series Mini
Daimler Mercedes: C-Class, CLS, Sprinter, V-Class, Daimler Smart Fortwo
Fiat Chrysler: Alfa Romeo Guilietta, Panda, Ducato, Jeep Cherokee
Ford: Focus, C-Max
Geely: Volvo V60
GM Opel: Astra, Insignia, Zafira
GM: Chevrolet Cruze
Honda: Honda HR-V
Hyundai: iX35, i20
Jaguar Land Rover: Land Rover Evoque
Mazda: Mazda 6
Mitsubishi: ASX
Nissan: Navara
Peugeot: Peugeot 308
Renault: Dacia, Kadjar
Toyota: Auris
VW: Golf, Beetle, Passat, Touran, Touareg, Golf Sportsvan, Polo, Crafter, Amarok; Audi A6, A3; Porsche Macan

Edited by FiF on Wednesday 11th November 19:23

[mollytherocker]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

TA14 said:

va1o said:

Its old news really, petrol engines have been having turbos strapped to them for over a decade now.

Over five decades?

It is almost a century now for turbos on ICE.

Yes, but the way turbos are being used now is different. Its not about power.

Its about efficiency and mpg, ie being able to use a smaller engine.

[StescoG66]

And given VW have instigated it, it simply looks like infantile finger pointing. "Look miss, they're doing it too......"

fk off.....

[anonymous-user]

StescoG66 said:

And given VW have instigated it, it simply looks like infantile finger pointing. "Look miss, they're doing it too......"

fk off.....

Sounds fair enough . We know the're all at it. Even petrols don't emit rose water fumes believe it or not . May as well take the holier than thou types down with you.

[DonkeyApple]

StescoG66 said:

And given VW have instigated it, it simply looks like infantile finger pointing. "Look miss, they're doing it too......"

fk off.....

As I suggested earlier in the thread, I'd be very surprised if VW haven't put a lot of effort in behind closed doors to try and find other companies to join their predicament. Very good for damage limitation and shifting the spotlight if they can.

[NJH]

mollytherocker said:

Yes, but the way turbos are being used now is different. Its not about power.

Its about efficiency and mpg, ie being able to use a smaller engine.

Er that was always the case. SAAB went to turbos on the 99 for exactly that reason after realising something like a Triumph V8 was never going to make a good engine/car package. Comparisons like the one made earlier was something SAAB did right through the 80s and 90s to promote their cars against 6 and 8 cylinder cars from Germany.

[Jimmy Recard]

DonkeyApple said:

As I suggested earlier in the thread, I'd be very surprised if VW haven't put a lot of effort in behind closed doors to try and find other companies to join their predicament. Very good for damage limitation and shifting the spotlight if they can.

I agree - they'd be stupid not to.

We just have to wait and see what the investigations show.

One thing is for sure though - if companies like GM and Ford have been doing it too, they have much smaller exposure since they don't offer diesel cars in as many markets.

[Avidfanofstuff]

Just had the letter through today that my Audi A4 Will need doing.

[Kolbenkopp]

FiF said:

And the investigation widens.

The Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt (KBA) regulator said on Wednesday it would run tests on models made by 23 German and foreign car brands on suspicion of further manipulation of nitrogen oxides emissions.

Full list of cars in the updated press release [1]. Says they did about two thirds of the required tests so far and have found some excessive NOx values. They are using (non standard) rolling road tests and PEMS and are discussing things with various manufacturers. They can't say anything final yet.

Sounds more like the expected cases of "optimising for the test" but not out and out cheating IMO.

[1] http://www.kba.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilungen/DE...

[Jimmy Recard]

I expect that most or all will be shown to have been optimised for the tests but not to explicitly operate separate maps like Volkswagen.

But we will see.

[Devil2575]

DonkeyApple said:

Granfondo said:

DonkeyApple said:

It'll probably tell us exactly what it tells us every year which is that when you wave a shiny milk bottle top at a Brit and hold a debt contract out they will buy absolutely any old turd they can lay their childishly excited, spendaholic little hands on.

Are you inferring that this country of financial geniuses are being lead blindly towards the financial abyss?

They've been in the abyss for over a decade and no one lead them, they hurled themselves willingly for the worship of ShinyShiny.

When you got most middle class people living for the monthly pay check to meet their debt obligations, begging for State handouts and generally living like one great episode of Brookside yet deluding themselves that they have more in common with Downton Abbey then I think it's fair to say they're already fked.

I think that sometimes you talk a lot of rubbish.

Begging for state handouts? In what respect?

Define most. I'm middle class and I don't beg for any handouts, and neither does anyone else I know. Yes I have a mortgage and yes I work so that I can service this debt but quite why you think this means I'm fked is beyond me.

But then this is PH so I'm sure you bought your house with cash.

[DonkeyApple]

Devil2575 said:

DonkeyApple said:

Granfondo said:

DonkeyApple said:

It'll probably tell us exactly what it tells us every year which is that when you wave a shiny milk bottle top at a Brit and hold a debt contract out they will buy absolutely any old turd they can lay their childishly excited, spendaholic little hands on.

Are you inferring that this country of financial geniuses are being lead blindly towards the financial abyss?

They've been in the abyss for over a decade and no one lead them, they hurled themselves willingly for the worship of ShinyShiny.

When you got most middle class people living for the monthly pay check to meet their debt obligations, begging for State handouts and generally living like one great episode of Brookside yet deluding themselves that they have more in common with Downton Abbey then I think it's fair to say they're already fked.

I think that sometimes you talk a lot of rubbish.

Begging for state handouts? In what respect?

Define most. I'm middle class and I don't beg for any handouts, and neither does anyone else I know. Yes I have a mortgage and yes I work so that I can service this debt but quite why you think this means I'm fked is beyond me.

But then this is PH so I'm sure you bought your house with cash.

Really Peter, so in your book the middle class households of the UK have not been increasing their personal debt since the 80s? Have not been reducing their pension contributions to the lowest level ever, are not currently running the worst savings rates? Just hoe many of these households would have survived without the crash to zero rates? and all the demands for child support etc etc. That can even be seen on here quite regularly.

We aren't talking purely about property debt either but general consumer debt, which you seem to have misunderstood and all time low savings levels which you absolutely cannot deny, nor you can you deny the issue of few middle class households having anywhere near the pension to be able to maintain their standard of living.

So may I suggest that just because you are middle class and have not got yourself caught up in this debt spiral that does not mean that everyone is like you because it is is very, very obvious to anyone who looks at any of the data that you and I are not the norm any more but the exception.

[NJH]

Many of the same families are in for a shock when tax credits are withdrawn. Utterly bonkers system.

[Devil2575]

DonkeyApple said:

Really Peter, so in your book the middle class households of the UK have not been increasing their personal debt since the 80s? Have not been reducing their pension contributions to the lowest level ever, are not currently running the worst savings rates? Just hoe many of these households would have survived without the crash to zero rates? and all the demands for child support etc etc. That can even be seen on here quite regularly.

We aren't talking purely about property debt either but general consumer debt, which you seem to have misunderstood and all time low savings levels which you absolutely cannot deny, nor you can you deny the issue of few middle class households having anywhere near the pension to be able to maintain their standard of living.

So may I suggest that just because you are middle class and have not got yourself caught up in this debt spiral that does not mean that everyone is like you because it is is very, very obvious to anyone who looks at any of the data that you and I are not the norm any more but the exception.

I think you're taking a situation that applies to a number of households and applying it to the majority. What does the data show? How many housholds could not cope with a rise in interest rates? How many households don't have sufficient pension provision?

There are undoubtably problems to do with debt, people taking on excessive mortages for example, the over use of credit and a lack of pension provision but you can't make the statement that this applies to the majority.

I also suspect that a great many people could cope with a drop in living standards without sufering any real hardship. People don't need a replace the car every three years, they don't need two weeks in the mediteranean every year, they don't need to latest Iphone/Ipad etc.

People might complain about child benefit but it doesn't mean they need it, they are simply used to getting it and so to lose it would require giving up something they have got used to having.

[Devil2575]

NJH said:

Many of the same families are in for a shock when tax credits are withdrawn. Utterly bonkers system.

No they're not. These are not the same middle class families refered too above.

It's very easy to link two issues and assume that they affect the same people. They don't

[C15]

FiF said:

And the investigation widens.

The Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt (KBA) regulator said on Wednesday it would run tests on models made by 23 German and foreign car brands on suspicion of further manipulation of nitrogen oxides emissions.

Diesel car brands being investigated by KBA

BMW: 3 Series, 5 Series Mini
Daimler Mercedes: C-Class, CLS, Sprinter, V-Class, Daimler Smart Fortwo
Fiat Chrysler: Alfa Romeo Guilietta, Panda, Ducato, Jeep Cherokee
Ford: Focus, C-Max
Geely: Volvo V60
GM Opel: Astra, Insignia, Zafira
GM: Chevrolet Cruze
Honda: Honda HR-V
Hyundai: iX35, i20
Jaguar Land Rover: Land Rover Evoque
Mazda: Mazda 6
Mitsubishi: ASX
Nissan: Navara
Peugeot: Peugeot 308
Renault: Dacia, Kadjar
Toyota: Auris
VW: Golf, Beetle, Passat, Touran, Touareg, Golf Sportsvan, Polo, Crafter, Amarok; Audi A6, A3; Porsche Macan

Edited by FiF on Wednesday 11th November 19:23

If you read the press release all the cars being 're'-investigated, were never tested by the KBA, but by 'other' parties. All VW cars were tested by the TÜV the so-called impartial company. It seems they take money for anything...

[DonkeyApple]

Devil2575 said:

DonkeyApple said:

Really Peter, so in your book the middle class households of the UK have not been increasing their personal debt since the 80s? Have not been reducing their pension contributions to the lowest level ever, are not currently running the worst savings rates? Just hoe many of these households would have survived without the crash to zero rates? and all the demands for child support etc etc. That can even be seen on here quite regularly.

We aren't talking purely about property debt either but general consumer debt, which you seem to have misunderstood and all time low savings levels which you absolutely cannot deny, nor you can you deny the issue of few middle class households having anywhere near the pension to be able to maintain their standard of living.

So may I suggest that just because you are middle class and have not got yourself caught up in this debt spiral that does not mean that everyone is like you because it is is very, very obvious to anyone who looks at any of the data that you and I are not the norm any more but the exception.

I think you're taking a situation that applies to a number of households and applying it to the majority. What does the data show? How many housholds could not cope with a rise in interest rates? How many households don't have sufficient pension provision?

There are undoubtably problems to do with debt, people taking on excessive mortages for example, the over use of credit and a lack of pension provision but you can't make the statement that this applies to the majority.

I also suspect that a great many people could cope with a drop in living standards without sufering any real hardship. People don't need a replace the car every three years, they don't need two weeks in the mediteranean every year, they don't need to latest Iphone/Ipad etc.

People might complain about child benefit but it doesn't mean they need it, they are simply used to getting it and so to lose it would require giving up something they have got used to having.

Yes, many could cut their cloth but that doesn't redress the situation that the majority of middle class households are using debt to synthesise a lifestyle that isn't exactly extravagant. It was never middle class to live from paycheck to paycheck and to have minimal savings, historically that is the lifestyle of the blue collar worker not white.

It is interesting when you realise that less than 300,000 people in the UK earn more than £90k/year net.

That doesn't correlate comfortably to the number of £50k+ cars sold each year or the millions of £500k+ homes in the UK.

This year the UK has hit the lowest savings ratio in modern times of just 4.7%. It's been a steady decline since the figure of 14% in 1979. And this figure is interesting because the saving ratio is pretty much defined at the levels above base by the middle classes so what it shows is that their savings, willingness or ability to save as plummeted aggressively.

Meanwhile, this year, consumer debt hit a seven year high.

With all of these statistics the numbers will actually be being supported by the cash rich but retired, demographically overweight, Baby Boomers. This means that the implications for those of working age are even worse.

Pension contributions, another middle class bellwether, have also declined massively over the last couple of decades. As has the number of middle class workers with no actual pension plan at all.

So when you insultingly accuse me of spouting crap and then cite your example of one as the reasoning you are, I'm saddened to say, failing to recognise that you are anomalous in the UK statistics.

To all intents and purposes, I run a collateralised debt business and am a silent partner in a specialist lending business and in my professional work I have, first hand, seen the massive decline of the middle classes into traditional working class lifestyles of weak savings and high monthly debt obligations and the data is publicly available to be seen by all.

As you say, people could cut their cloth if they really needed to, the point that I am making is that they reached that point a decade ago and have failed to curb their spending of current income and accelerated the spending of future income. And they have done so willingly as more and more lending regulations have been lifted so as to stimulate artificial growth and tax receipt uplift through increased consumer spending.

In short, living on the never never, not saving for your family's future, not having a solid double digit savings ratio, regardless of your level of education, line of work or background isn't exactly a middle class lifestyle.

[Devil2575]

DonkeyApple said:

In short, living on the never never, not saving for your family's future, not having a solid double digit savings ratio, regardless of your level of education, line of work or background isn't exactly a middle class lifestyle.

It sounds to me like your issue is more a distaste of how the middle classes live rather than there being an actual problem. In years gone by the middle classes were actually a much smaller proportion of the population than they are now. Go back a number of decades and the majority of the population would have been working class, blue collar workers. Now the middle class makes up the majority. It's hardly supprising that with such an expansion of the middle classes there has been a change in the way this group choose to live. Did you consider it a problem in the past when the working classes, i.e. the majority of the population, lived from paycheck to paycheck?

Whether you think this is a middle class lifestyle or not is neither here nor there. Are you simply looking for a way to differentiate yourself from the majority who on the outside look the same as you? A way to fee superior to the masses now a flash car no longer does that job for you?