VW in trouble over alleged US emission test manipulations
Discussion
mollytherocker said:
It all depends on what 'fixed' means. Remove the cheat device? Pass the test? Or some other 'agreement'?
Given they got nailed for only enabling emission controls during testing (the cheat device), I assume the firmware mods are to stay in "clean" mode at all times. Anything else and the regulators will be lining up to treat them like a pinata.VW are just hoping by the end of 2016, this will have all been brushed under the carpet. As enough confusion will have been generated thanks to incorrectly stating MPG [1] and CO2, NOX, leaving the majority unclear ( it is clear enough though ) what the reality is, so that everyone will be all excited about their 20 mile range 48V EV hybrids.
Having been into a number of dealerships recently, the noticeable change in service is noticeable; but for some of us, its a futile exercise. I'm pretty sure we'll able to buy another Bosch bodykit provider elsewhere outside of VAG.
[1] old news, but it all comes together in the blatant BS from VAG.
Having been into a number of dealerships recently, the noticeable change in service is noticeable; but for some of us, its a futile exercise. I'm pretty sure we'll able to buy another Bosch bodykit provider elsewhere outside of VAG.
[1] old news, but it all comes together in the blatant BS from VAG.
IMO if this new device they came up with does anything, then it's because it functions as a Venturi that restricts the airflow.
It's also dirt cheap (< £1) and in a very convenient location for the retrofit.
Restricted airflow = richer combustion = lower NOx
Of course most if not all of the effect is from the ECU remapping, not this little part. I had a tendency to defend VAG through this scandal but now I also hope that the EPA hits them where it hurts the most.
It's also dirt cheap (< £1) and in a very convenient location for the retrofit.
Restricted airflow = richer combustion = lower NOx
Of course most if not all of the effect is from the ECU remapping, not this little part. I had a tendency to defend VAG through this scandal but now I also hope that the EPA hits them where it hurts the most.
Not sure the proposed fix is so unrealistic. In the EU, all they have to do is patch out the 'defeat device' from the software and make sure the things hit EU5 targets on the EU cycle. It's not that they suddenly have to meet Californian standards or deliver good on-road results to be perfectly legal.
Jezzerh said:
My VW dealer called me last week to offer 'market value' for the wife's Golf TDI and £1500 off a new order. Said 'there's never been a better time to buy a new VW'!
£1500 off a new Golf isn't a great deal , and "market value" is a few grand lower than it was 3 months ago. If you have a diesel VW group car right now, keep it, the trade in values of them is terrible, and will remain so for a while. The only people taking them in are VW group dealers, other franchises are running a mile. It will take a long time (if at all) for their residual values to climb back up.Crusoe said:
Looks like it will decrease the air intake size by 20% or so judging by how thick that mesh is. Should lead to the same sort of decrease in fuel use and emissions for the same throttle opening but presumably cuts maximum power by a similar amount too.
Any pressure drop will exponentially increase with airflow, and be at a maximum around peak HP and a minimum at idle. Doesn't sounds like a remotely useful way to restrict airflow at the operating points of interest, but is a very useful device for straightening airflow through a sensor. It probably won't be the only part of the fix, the ECU calibration would need to be updated to account for any changes in the measured airflow.Question is what will happen on a National/Governmental level? We all know cars don't achieve the CO2 printed in brochures but VW have effectively conned nations out of VED. Will they back pay per affected vehicle, pay for that vehicle in the future and be subject to a punitive fine on turnover?
vikingaero said:
Question is what will happen on a National/Governmental level? We all know cars don't achieve the CO2 printed in brochures but VW have effectively conned nations out of VED. Will they back pay per affected vehicle, pay for that vehicle in the future and be subject to a punitive fine on turnover?
Nah. Free Phaetons for Government Ministers around the EU should settle that problem.@Mr2Mike: thanks for the explanation regarding that mesh thing. Not sure why they need that for the 1.6 (2.0 and 1.2 apparently new software is good enough). Edit: just read the 1.2 and the 2.0 don't need the retrofitted part because that's already integrated for these variants.
Below a pic from an on road emissions test carried out on an cheating 2.0 diesel. This was done by a regional environment agency in Germany in 2014 (unaware of any defeat devices). Now looking at the RPM/kW data it looks doable enough to keep this in the 'yellow' for the EU test, or?
It's still going to be s
te on the road, but perfectly 'legal'. Not that I condone any of this. Just think it's totally possible for VAG to fix things (in Europe!) at relatively low cost.
Below a pic from an on road emissions test carried out on an cheating 2.0 diesel. This was done by a regional environment agency in Germany in 2014 (unaware of any defeat devices). Now looking at the RPM/kW data it looks doable enough to keep this in the 'yellow' for the EU test, or?
It's still going to be s
te on the road, but perfectly 'legal'. Not that I condone any of this. Just think it's totally possible for VAG to fix things (in Europe!) at relatively low cost.vikingaero said:
Question is what will happen on a National/Governmental level? We all know cars don't achieve the CO2 printed in brochures but VW have effectively conned nations out of VED. Will they back pay per affected vehicle, pay for that vehicle in the future and be subject to a punitive fine on turnover?
Matter not be confused with the NOx topic, but in Germany there are apparently discussions between VAG and the Ministry of Finance to allow them to sort this out between the State and VAG directly, without involving end customers. Basically VAG want to pick up the difference and send that to government directly. Now as a competitor I'd cry foul immediately (state aid?). Going to be interesting to see how that evolves...Edited by Kolbenkopp on Tuesday 1st December 17:56
Kolbenkopp said:
It's still going to be ste on the road, but perfectly 'legal'. Not that I condone any of this. Just think it's totally possible for VAG to fix things (in Europe!) at relatively low cost.
Will customers accept that kind of power reduction? Looks like peak power will fall from around 84kw to about 54kw if they have to keep in the yellow zone.te on the road, but perfectly 'legal'. Not that I condone any of this. Just think it's totally possible for VAG to fix things (in Europe!) at relatively low cost.grumpynuts said:
Jezzerh said:
My VW dealer called me last week to offer 'market value' for the wife's Golf TDI and £1500 off a new order. Said 'there's never been a better time to buy a new VW'!
£1500 off a new Golf isn't a great deal , and "market value" is a few grand lower than it was 3 months ago. If you have a diesel VW group car right now, keep it, the trade in values of them is terrible, and will remain so for a while. The only people taking them in are VW group dealers, other franchises are running a mile. It will take a long time (if at all) for their residual values to climb back up.RYH64E said:
Will customers accept that kind of power reduction? Looks like peak power will fall from around 84kw to about 54kw if they have to keep in the yellow zone.
In theory yes, but only if they wanted super low emissions on the road. They don't need that legally. Only the load during the EU cycle matters. Imagine driving that (glacially slow acceleration, walking is faster...) and plot that on the chart. I doubt it would be going much out of the yellow zone at all. Kolbenkopp said:
In theory yes, but only if they wanted super low emissions on the road. They don't need that legally. Only the load during the EU cycle matters. Imagine driving that (glacially slow acceleration, walking is faster...) and plot that on the chart. I doubt it would be going much out of the yellow zone at all.
Surely the official test cycle includes a variety of driving conditions, including periods of more than glacial acceleration?grumpynuts said:
£1500 off a new Golf isn't a great deal , and "market value" is a few grand lower than it was 3 months ago. If you have a diesel VW group car right now, keep it, the trade in values of them is terrible, and will remain so for a while. The only people taking them in are VW group dealers, other franchises are running a mile. It will take a long time (if at all) for their residual values to climb back up.
Aye when I asked if the market value would take into account recent events causing higher than usual depreciation he went all quiet!
RYH64E said:
Kolbenkopp said:
In theory yes, but only if they wanted super low emissions on the road. They don't need that legally. Only the load during the EU cycle matters. Imagine driving that (glacially slow acceleration, walking is faster...) and plot that on the chart. I doubt it would be going much out of the yellow zone at all.
Surely the official test cycle includes a variety of driving conditions, including periods of more than glacial acceleration?Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff