VW in trouble over alleged US emission test manipulations

[Fastdruid]

xjay1337 said:

Fastdruid said:

xjay1337 said:

How have the government lost tax?

Because the NOx and CO2 is a trade off. While undoubtedly the modified cars now hit the NOx limits they probably don't hit the same CO2 as they did previously. Which means they would likely be in higher VED bands and hence lost tax.

This is all of course theoretical without someone doing a full before/after test for NOx, CO2 and power/torque.

NOx is not measured though, for emissions.

Not for VED banding no. It is for type approval so you can't sell the cars without conforming to the limits (which VW's didn't).

xjay1337 said:

The Government taxes based on CO2.

You can have the same Co2 output but depending on full atomisation of fuel, burn quality and post-exhaust treatment can effect NOX.

Yes but without changing anything other than the map it is highly unlikely that there were no trade-offs, otherwise why bother?

IMO while undoubtedly they can make it pass the NOx for the type approval it is highly unlikely that the CO2 would be unaffected (which is not subject to type-approval and is just for VED etc).

xjay1337 said:

So those people raising their pitchforks saying "THEY HAVE CHEATED THE GOV OUT OF TAXATION REVENUE" are talking BS.

As I said, we won't know unless someone does a full re-test of emissions on one including mpg, CO2 and NOx. Ideally a before and after as well. Doubtful we'll see it.

My personal opinion is that they have traded CO2 and particulates for NOx and that while the cars will pass they'll need increased DPF regens and potentially should have been higher VED bands if they'd been released like that in the first place.

[xjay1337]

Fastdruid said:

xjay1337 said:

Fastdruid said:

xjay1337 said:

How have the government lost tax?

Because the NOx and CO2 is a trade off. While undoubtedly the modified cars now hit the NOx limits they probably don't hit the same CO2 as they did previously. Which means they would likely be in higher VED bands and hence lost tax.

This is all of course theoretical without someone doing a full before/after test for NOx, CO2 and power/torque.

NOx is not measured though, for emissions.

Not for VED banding no. It is for type approval so you can't sell the cars without conforming to the limits (which VW's didn't).

xjay1337 said:

The Government taxes based on CO2.

You can have the same Co2 output but depending on full atomisation of fuel, burn quality and post-exhaust treatment can effect NOX.

Yes but without changing anything other than the map it is highly unlikely that there were no trade-offs, otherwise why bother?

IMO while undoubtedly they can make it pass the NOx for the type approval it is highly unlikely that the CO2 would be unaffected (which is not subject to type-approval and is just for VED etc).

xjay1337 said:

So those people raising their pitchforks saying "THEY HAVE CHEATED THE GOV OUT OF TAXATION REVENUE" are talking BS.

As I said, we won't know unless someone does a full re-test of emissions on one including mpg, CO2 and NOx. Ideally a before and after as well. Doubtful we'll see it.

My personal opinion is that they have traded CO2 and particulates for NOx and that while the cars will pass they'll need increased DPF regens and potentially should have been higher VED bands if they'd been released like that in the first place.

If not for emissions then why the point that governments will have lost tax?

All I know is what they did, and how they did it, not why the did it. But the argument that Gov's have lost taxation revenue is laughable.

You are assuming that CO2 emissions and NOX output are directly linked - here's a tip, they're not.

[delta0]

The whole point of these devices was to cheat emissions testing for CO2. The government did lose tax because of this. However it is hard to measure because people would have probably bought other cars if they were keen to reduce VED.

[xjay1337]

delta0 said:

The whole point of these devices was to cheat emissions testing for CO2. The government did lose tax because of this. However it is hard to measure because people would have probably bought other cars if they were keen to reduce VED.

..............

It was to cheat NOx emissions critea, primarily for USA vehicles.

UK does not base it's VED on NOX emissions. They do it on CO2.

CO2 was uneffected.

From Wikipedia

Wikipedia said:

CO2 emissions irregularities[edit]
On 3 November 2015, VW revealed that its internal investigation found that CO2 emissions and fuel consumption figures were also affected by "irregularities". These new issues, first estimated to cost up to €2 billion to repair, involved mainly diesel, but also some petrol models, with initial estimates suggesting that approximately 800,000 vehicles equipped with 1.4, 1.6 and 2.0 litre motors from VW, Skoda, Audi and Seat might be affected.[6] On 9 December 2015, VW revised these estimates, saying that only around 36,000 vehicles are affected by the irregularities, while also affirming that it had found no evidence of unlawful changing of CO2 emissions data.[9] The news prompted a 7.3 percent increase in VW preference shares on the same day.[9][99]

[DonkeyApple]

CO2 slightly effected as the cars were burning more fuel than they claimed so we're pumping out more CO2. Which I guess might in some cases change their taxation bracket?

[ChrisRS6]

Why do the "victims" think they need compensation?

Who actually gives a monkeys!!

Serves you right for buying diesels....diesel is for tractors and misers.

[loose cannon]

You could also say its all vag groups own fault and deserve to be penalised for trying to pull the wool over people's eyes knowing full well that was what they were doing, rather than crying like a Bradford drug dealer because you were caught with your pants down

[toastyhamster]

Anybody on here actually joined the class action in the UK? We've looked into it and it just looks like a massive cash cow for the lawyers (surprise!), you have to pay a success fee, a percentage of the payout goes to them too, the only plus point appears to be the lack of fees if they lose. Never done compo before and it goes against the grain, but we're on the fence with this one, VW appear to be getting away relatively unscathed.

[DonkeyApple]

ChrisRS6 said:

Why do the "victims" think they need compensation?

Who actually gives a monkeys!!

Serves you right for buying diesels....diesel is for tractors and misers.

They were conned and the product they bought is now worth less as a result. So they should be compensated the amount that has cost them. Exploiting tards is wrong and companies shouldn't be allowed to get away with it. Regardless of the levels of shadenfreude involved.

[delta0]

xjay1337 said:

delta0 said:

The whole point of these devices was to cheat emissions testing for CO2. The government did lose tax because of this. However it is hard to measure because people would have probably bought other cars if they were keen to reduce VED.

..............

It was to cheat NOx emissions critea, primarily for USA vehicles.

UK does not base it's VED on NOX emissions. They do it on CO2.

CO2 was uneffected.

From Wikipedia

Wikipedia said:

CO2 emissions irregularities[edit]
On 3 November 2015, VW revealed that its internal investigation found that CO2 emissions and fuel consumption figures were also affected by "irregularities". These new issues, first estimated to cost up to €2 billion to repair, involved mainly diesel, but also some petrol models, with initial estimates suggesting that approximately 800,000 vehicles equipped with 1.4, 1.6 and 2.0 litre motors from VW, Skoda, Audi and Seat might be affected.[6] On 9 December 2015, VW revised these estimates, saying that only around 36,000 vehicles are affected by the irregularities, while also affirming that it had found no evidence of unlawful changing of CO2 emissions data.[9] The news prompted a 7.3 percent increase in VW preference shares on the same day.[9][99]

The updates to the vehicles is well know to alter the power and mpg. It is inevitable that the CO2 has increased. It is burning more fuel!

[RDMcG]

Guilty plea in US....penalties of $4.3 billion..

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-11...

[lee_erm]

Shares prices have risen since the announcement, which suggests they got of lightly!

[xjay1337]

delta0 said:

xjay1337 said:

delta0 said:

The whole point of these devices was to cheat emissions testing for CO2. The government did lose tax because of this. However it is hard to measure because people would have probably bought other cars if they were keen to reduce VED.

..............

It was to cheat NOx emissions critea, primarily for USA vehicles.

UK does not base it's VED on NOX emissions. They do it on CO2.

CO2 was uneffected.

From Wikipedia

Wikipedia said:

CO2 emissions irregularities[edit]
On 3 November 2015, VW revealed that its internal investigation found that CO2 emissions and fuel consumption figures were also affected by "irregularities". These new issues, first estimated to cost up to €2 billion to repair, involved mainly diesel, but also some petrol models, with initial estimates suggesting that approximately 800,000 vehicles equipped with 1.4, 1.6 and 2.0 litre motors from VW, Skoda, Audi and Seat might be affected.[6] On 9 December 2015, VW revised these estimates, saying that only around 36,000 vehicles are affected by the irregularities, while also affirming that it had found no evidence of unlawful changing of CO2 emissions data.[9] The news prompted a 7.3 percent increase in VW preference shares on the same day.[9][99]

The updates to the vehicles is well know to alter the power and mpg. It is inevitable that the CO2 has increased. It is burning more fuel!

You completely ignore my point(s) that

- NOx output is not at all related to CO2 output.
- CO2 is not been "falsified" in the scandal
- There is no EVIDENCE of loss of power or higher emissions

I have not seen any proof (KEYWORD!!!) that the MPG or power has been effected other than owners saying "my MPG readout is 48 now instead of 51" which can alter massively with driving style and time of year, ambient temperature etc.
Not only that but people become hyper-sensitive to things which were always there, but they never gave second thought to.




I spent 5 minutes doing some research - something I suggest you do.

I was easily able to find the following.

First is from the Touring Club Schweiz, indicating that performance is not effected.

http://www.audiforhandlere.no/globalassets/2016062...

Second is from ADAC:

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/20-tdi-has-more-...

I have no reason to believe the two above outfits would lie, they have no affiliation to VW that I can see.

The update is to improve combustion efficiency, hence a higher rail pressure (higher rail pressure improves atomisation of fuel, cleaner more complete burn , less NOx without increasing CO2).

Infact, in the TCS article above, you can see that CO2 actually remained the same and NOx has dropped.

[delta0]

xjay1337 said:

You completely ignore my point(s) that

- NOx output is not at all related to CO2 output.
- CO2 is not been "falsified" in the scandal
- There is no EVIDENCE of loss of power or higher emissions

I have not seen any proof (KEYWORD!!!) that the MPG or power has been effected other than owners saying "my MPG readout is 48 now instead of 51" which can alter massively with driving style and time of year, ambient temperature etc.
Not only that but people become hyper-sensitive to things which were always there, but they never gave second thought to.




I spent 5 minutes doing some research - something I suggest you do.

I was easily able to find the following.

First is from the Touring Club Schweiz, indicating that performance is not effected.

http://www.audiforhandlere.no/globalassets/2016062...

Second is from ADAC:

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/20-tdi-has-more-...

I have no reason to believe the two above outfits would lie, they have no affiliation to VW that I can see.

The update is to improve combustion efficiency, hence a higher rail pressure (higher rail pressure improves atomisation of fuel, cleaner more complete burn , less NOx without increasing CO2).

Infact, in the TCS article above, you can see that CO2 actually remained the same and NOx has dropped.

I know the power is reduced as I've seen before and after dyno results. The claim that NOx and CO2 is not linked is also false. Whilst not directly but by adding more fuel combustion chamber temperatures reduce which reduces NOx. More fuel mean more CO2. The extra fuel also explains why dpf regeneration is much higher.

[xjay1337]

delta0 said:

I know the power is reduced as I've seen before and after dyno results. The claim that NOx and CO2 is not linked is also false. Whilst not directly but by adding more fuel combustion chamber temperatures reduce which reduces NOx. More fuel mean more CO2. The extra fuel also explains why dpf regeneration is much higher.

Please share these dyno results then?

Nox and co2 are not linked at all, as I said.

In this case, rail pressure has been raised, not IQ.


edited to add: if CO2 and NOX are linked, how come diesels generally produce low CO2 but high NOX, where as some cars produce High CO2 and low NOX??
Nox is incomplete burn, which you can negate by either

-removing fuel quantity (at an impact of power / driveability / response)
- increase rail pressure for better fuel atomisation
- after market treatment eg adblue.

Edited by xjay1337 on Wednesday 11th January 20:55

[delta0]

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AII8a0cFXX1v...
Pretty significant loss.

Combustion temperature is a major factor in CO2 and NOx levels. Diesel and petrol engines have significantly different temperatures. Other factors like burn time, exhaust recirculation etc. also contribute.

Edited by delta0 on Wednesday 11th January 21:06

[RobDickinson]

So the U.S. is now fining VAG $4.3bn for fixing the tests ( in addition to the $14bn+ in settlements), so the whole thing has cost them near $20bn already in the US and this afik doesnt cover all the vehicles or the fixes?

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/fo...

And for some stupid reason VW exec Oliver Schmidt decided to take a holiday in Florida, his solicitor is duty bound to report this fact to the US government, so the FBI arrested him... duh... wtf was he thinking.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/09/business/volksw...

[Alucidnation]

Is it me or is it just the Americans that are complaining the most?

[RobDickinson]

Alucidnation said:

Is it me or is it just the Americans that are complaining the most?

Well given its their system they cheated, and VAG is surprisingly not an American company, its not a surprise..?

[GroundEffect]

xjay1337 said:

delta0 said:

I know the power is reduced as I've seen before and after dyno results. The claim that NOx and CO2 is not linked is also false. Whilst not directly but by adding more fuel combustion chamber temperatures reduce which reduces NOx. More fuel mean more CO2. The extra fuel also explains why dpf regeneration is much higher.

Please share these dyno results then?

Nox and co2 are not linked at all, as I said.

In this case, rail pressure has been raised, not IQ.


edited to add: if CO2 and NOX are linked, how come diesels generally produce low CO2 but high NOX, where as some cars produce High CO2 and low NOX??
Nox is incomplete burn, which you can negate by either

-removing fuel quantity (at an impact of power / driveability / response)
- increase rail pressure for better fuel atomisation
- after market treatment eg adblue.

Edited by xjay1337 on Wednesday 11th January 20:55

NOx isn't produced by incomplete combustion, it's very high combustion temps/pressures that cause it. Diesel with its massive compression ratios sees very high cylinder pressures (therefore temps) therefore NOx is worse.

There's only so many ways to reduce NOx:

- Reduce fueling to reduce peak cylinder temps
- EGR
- LNT
- SCR

CO2 is basically intrinsically linked to mpg. One is fairly linear to the other.