VW in trouble over alleged US emission test manipulations

[OldGermanHeaps]

i havent seen a recent us spec vag map in winols but in the earlier ones they used less timing advance for start of injection and more aggressive egr. Lots of power and mpg gains to be had.

[mini me]

OldGermanHeaps said:

I was explaining why it might not be as much as an issue in european testing and tax banding which is more biased towards CO2 and particulates, not making excuses for them. You can think what you want though, i couldn't give a fk either way.

The issue here is mainly the fact that be appear to be using a defeat device which is a. Extremely frowned upon and b. Rather a silly thing to do given the fines and stigma which come with it when you are inevitably caught out. There are many historical examples of this to the extent that in the field we actually have compulsory training regarding what is/ is not a defeat device with a view to us never falling foul of the law again. I'm surprised that vw have been daft enough to do this and I suspect it is not a coorperate decision. That would be outrageous.

If they are found to be using this on European vehicles too it will be a big issue regardless of the actual difference in emissions.

Edited by mini me on Saturday 19th September 15:43

[delta0]

This could also go a long way to explaining why VAG cars never achieve their claimed mpg in the real world.

[anonymous-user]

mini me said:

they appear to be using a defeat device

It's worth noting that the words "defeat device" as applied by CARB or EPA legislation does not necessarily refer to deliberate "cheating". It is simply the terms used to refer to how the vehicle responds in the grey area between "on cycle" driving and all other driving.

[mini me]

Hmm I would take defeat device to imply a deliberate attempt to cheat the test. I tried to copy the definition from here:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri...

But my phone won't let me somehow. Search for defeat device and it gives the definition. Assuming the same/similar definition applies to CARB, and this is where my knowledge is lacking, and based upon the reports which mention use of defeat device. It kinda sounds to me like a deliberate attempt to cheat the tests. I am very interested to know the details though. We all make mistakes. But this is being reported as a deliberate action. These, I would trust, aren't daft people. I would like to know where it's gone wrong.

[mini me]

In fact. Just found this. Again can't copy paste, is this a new ios9 thing? Never had an issue before?

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/09/20150918-e...

That is not good. And, well, blimey!

[andygo]

I bet they don't give the fines to the owners of the affected cars.

Is there any truth that it was an ex Benetton software engineer that did the VW maps?

Think VW might do well if they get into F1 by buying Red Bull out, the cultures already there at RBR, lol.

[Jonny_]

This could open a can of worms for other manufacturers too.

Look at it this way: if VAG had to do this to get the "right" result (be that a low emissions figure for the marketing people to use, or to comply with specific emission limits in order to be allowed to sell the cars, or whatever other motivating factors were at play), how did BMW/Mercedes/Toyota/Nissan/Ford/any other competitor pselling passenger cars with ~2 litre diesel engines achieve the same? I doubt VW and Audi are alone in advertising low emission diesel cars.

[hornetrider]

mini me said:

In fact. Just found this. Again can't copy paste, is this a new ios9 thing? Never had an issue before?

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/09/20150918-e...

That is not good. And, well, blimey!

Crikey bikey. Potentially owners cars which haven't been fixed under recall may fail their equivalent of the mot and won't be allowed on the road.

I can hear the salivating of class action lawyers from here!

[EskimoArapaho]

So, apart from the possibility of a humungous fine, VAG has to fix all of the affected cars; almost half a million. That's an awful lot of work.

But ... if the fix comes at the cost of performance/economy (and one of those must surely be suffer), isn't VAG going to be on the receiving end of a huge class-action lawsuit from owners who will have lesser cars than they paid for?

Schadenfreude, anyone?

[marmitemania]

I wonder how the usual pious, smug VW driving type will react if this comes to the UK. I bet they will still loyally stick by VAG.

[jonnM]

marmitemania said:

I wonder how the usual pious, smug VW driving type will react if this comes to the UK. I bet they will still loyally stick by VAG.

Of course they will. Who cares about emissions when your dashboard smells THAT good!

[mini me]

Jonny_ said:

This could open a can of worms for other manufacturers too.

Look at it this way: if VAG had to do this to get the "right" result (be that a low emissions figure for the marketing people to use, or to comply with specific emission limits in order to be allowed to sell the cars, or whatever other motivating factors were at play), how did BMW/Mercedes/Toyota/Nissan/Ford/any other competitor pselling passenger cars with ~2 litre diesel engines achieve the same? I doubt VW and Audi are alone in advertising low emission diesel cars.

Honestly though. Hand on heart as far as I can say, we don't do this. It's not the done thing and whilst it's a challenge to comply with the latest and "greatest" limits thrown at "us", as engineers that's the job. You gotta comply. It's funny but, not that I've ever been an Olympic champion but when you spend so much time, money and effort to make something work well and within the rules. You take all the conprimise which is inevitable and try to make the best of it as you can with a view to actually delivering the best you can, within the constraints, to your customers. And then you wonder how the competition can do it seemingly better, cheaper, quicker. Then you read this. It's almost like your nearest rival
Who just beat you in the marathon got caught in some doping scandal. It's a shame cos these are surely the same sort of people as us. Same morals etc. Maybe not. Who knows. But then we all get tared with the same brush and that's really sad. No offence intended. I can understand your view but please don't think like that. We aren't all up to tricks I promise. I am as amazed by this as anyone.

[skip_1]

I am surprised that they have sold nearly 500k diesel cars in the US. Is diesel becoming popular there?

[skyrover]

OldGermanHeaps said:

The american test is for NOx not CO2 like the european tests. Actually its inverse, tuning for lower NOx generally increases CO2 and particulate output and vice versa. The american test deliberately favours big thirsty low compression low output petrol engines that those fkwits love.

Edited by OldGermanHeaps on Saturday 19th September 12:09

Except those big, low compression petrol's are far far cleaner than your filthy diesel and as a result, US cities tend to have cleaner air than European cities.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/may/07...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-268...

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/diesel-cars-could-be-bann...

Edited by skyrover on Saturday 19th September 21:01

[jkh112]

Jonny_ said:

This could open a can of worms for other manufacturers too.
), how did BMW/Mercedes/Toyota/Nissan/Ford/any other competitor pselling passenger cars with ~2 litre diesel engines achieve the same? I doubt VW and Audi are alone in advertising low emission diesel cars.

I am not certain, but I think that most other manufacturers selling Diesel engines passenger cars in the US use urea injection and other technologies to pass the tests, VW chose other methods to pass the tests.

[skyrover]

jkh112 said:

I am not certain, but I think that most other manufacturers selling Diesel engines passenger cars in the US use urea injection and other technologies to pass the tests, VW chose other methods to pass the tests.

VW uses urea injection on larger engines

They were asked why they did not put the 2.0 litre 4 pot in one of their bigger car's, to which they replied "underpowered".

Turns out it was because in the heavier car, the 2.0 litre could not pass the emissions test with just the standard filter and "software tweaks". All other diesel manufacturers used urea injection.

[anonymous-user]

marmitemania said:

I wonder how the usual pious, smug VW driving type will react if this comes to the UK. I bet they will still loyally stick by VAG.

This prejudiced rubbish says more about you than the VW owner..

[bitchstewie]

marmitemania said:

I wonder how the usual pious, smug VW driving type will react if this comes to the UK. I bet they will still loyally stick by VAG.

Pious, smug VW driving type here. How should react?

[EricE]

Consumer Reports Strips ‘Recommended’ Rating From VW TDIs

consumer reports said:

Based on the EPA notice of violation against Volkswagen for circumventing emissions testing guidelines, Consumer Reports has suspended its “recommended” Rating of two VW vehicles: The Jetta diesel and Passat diesel. These recommendations will be suspended until Consumer Reports can re-test these vehicles with a recall repair performed. Once the emissions systems are functioning properly, we will assess whether the repair has adversely affected performance or fuel economy.

source

Still no word from VW? According to some forum comments they have issued a sale stop for all diesel models in the USA.