RE: Winterkorn out!

[Composite Guru]

Evilex said:

I wonder what effect this will have on the much-speculated-upon VW Formula 1 tie-up with Red Bull for 2018?

Piech wasn't in favour of it. Winterkorn was.

Even if the new CEO is in favour, it's likely that the US prosecutors will ensure that VAG's ability to fund such a venture is compromised.

Pity, F1 could have done with another engine supplier..

Do you think that VW knew nothing about what was going to happen until it broke the headlines? I reckon they knew this for ages so if any deal was done to enter F1 it would of been done after this came to light.
I think VW will bounce back and will use F1 to do so IMO.

[HowardB]

My thoughts are they are in some serious trouble:

1,. I buy a car because it will be efficient, nope - they lied
2,. I buy a car as the VED will be lower, nope - they lied
3,. I buy a car as the BIK will be lower, nope - they lied

I have a case against VW,.
The government has a case against VW for loss of VED and BIK

all in all not a good place to be,...

[GTEYE]

As the Metro has said this morning "That's all Volks"

[oldtimer2]

dvs_dave said:

oldtimer2 said:

His resignation was unavoidable step, even if he was not personally aware. It happened on his watch.

More accurately the issue was discovered on his watch. However the offending engine was discontinued in the US in 2014, but Winterkorn replaced Piech in April 2015. So the actual offenses occurred very much under Piech's watch. Potentially a lucky escape for him, but I have a feeling this will catch up with him so he's no doubt sweating bullets too.

You raise a very good question. Would Dr Piech have taken the bullet were he still Chairman? Or would he have expected Winterkorn to take the bullet as the Chief Executive Officer? (WinterKorn was CEO of the VAG group when Piech was Chairman). Or did, indeed, did Piech make a timely departure a month or two ago in anticipation of trouble ahead? My guess is that we shall never know.

[derin100]

AREA said:

Professor Doctor Doctor? How did that happen, did he take the exams twice (sorry Basil!)

Not sure whether his resignation is a great demonstration of accountability or if he is walking away from what will become a very ugly situation and so demonstrating a lack of accountability !

If you have written two PhD theses even Doktor Doktor is quite legitimate in Germany.

[Cotic]

HowardB said:

My thoughts are they are in some serious trouble:

1,. I buy a car because it will be efficient, nope - they lied
2,. I buy a car as the VED will be lower, nope - they lied
3,. I buy a car as the BIK will be lower, nope - they lied

I have a case against VW,.
The government has a case against VW for loss of VED and BIK

all in all not a good place to be,...

I wouldn't stand up in court with that if I were you! The emissions equipment which VW have tampered with largely only effect NOx (Nitric Oxide and Nitrogen Dioxide), there would probably have been no appreciable difference to CO2, and therefore efficiency, VED or BIK figures. In fact, without this equipment operating the chances are that the efficiency, and carbon emissions are actually lower. Your best chance of a case against VW is that the car simply isn't as clean as you were led to believe; or wait until the cars been in for the recall and then complain when its 0-60 time has increased by 5 seconds.

[oldtimer2]

Munich said:

oldtimer2 said:

His resignation was unavoidable step, even if he was not personally aware. It happened on his watch.

The reputational and cost consequences for VW and the VAG group look dire. But there is sure to be fall out for the rest of the European industry too. Diesel engines are significant - in the UK it is reported that about three quarters of all UK engine production is diesel. After being pushed in the direction of diesel by the environmental lobby and EU regulation and taxation over the past decade or more, there are already the first stirrings of a backlash against polluting diesels by environmental lobbyists. It this succeeds then the industry and us, the consumers, can expect changes to current tax incentives and emissions standards and testing - and manufacturers will be in yet another round of re-engineering. None of this will come cheap. Pause for thought if you are thinking of or about to buy a new car.

Why should diesel engines be especially effected by this? If this is a VAG only issue? Who is to say there isn't some sort of cheat software on petrol engines?

Diesel engines are affected by this because they emit NOx which is said to cause premature deaths. The USA emission standard specifically refers to NOx (which VW failed to meet and deceived the regulatory authorities about their failure). In Europe, specifically the EU, the regulations focussed on CO2 because the political class believed in CAGW (catastrophic anthropogenic global warming) and that forcing car manufacturers to reduce CO2 emission would help save the planet; the widespread adoption of diesel engines followed from this policy because it proved easier to reduce CO2 with diesel engines vs petrol engines. In a discussion on BBC NewsNight yesterday evening, it was stated (by a professor who studies such matters) that this was the biggest policy disaster of the past twenty years. What was even more alarming was the woeful ignorance of the MP who appeared (and she is the Chair of the House of Commons Select Committee on Transport); clearly she was quite clueless about the differences between the US and EU regulations and took refuge by arguing that pedestrian safety was a key issue.

Perhaps we will find out if there are cheats on petrol engines too. It seems entirely possible within the VAG group not least because the culture to cheat the standards clearly exists. If you can do it for diesels why not for petrol engines too? My guess is that this practice was widely known within VW engine engineering circles; quite how far it went up the line remains to be seen but given that one of the best routes up the VAG corporate ladder is through engineering, it cannot be ruled out.

[GranCab]

[Guvernator]

I know this is only in the US but I really hope it effects the EU too. Uninformed politicians on the back of claims still to be positively substantiated decided that they would "save the planet" and more importantly win green votes by making everyone drive diesels. Anyone who lives in an urban environment can tell you which cars are the dirtiest most polluting, just by standing a few feet from one and it certainly isn't the car that is chugging out black smelly smoke while allegedly putting out less c02.

Obviously VW aren't blameless as they have cheated but the real culprits are the politicians who meddle with and make decisions on things they barely understand. A testing regime that bears no relation to the real world and then strict financial penalties for failing to meet that test, is it any wonder that VW cheated? The whole thing is an absolute sham. I hope it does effect the EU and I hope the whole sordid emissions BS comes crashing down around their ears.

[hoegaardenruls]

[zeppelin101]

VX Foxy said:

Just compare the stated emissions of all the mainstream 2.0L diesels - IIRC they're all around 120 CO2s. That ain't no coincidence...

That would be true if good fuel economy corresponded with good NOx in a diesel, which is not necessarily the case. The heart of the problem is that they were blowing the NOx limit to pieces.

[Europa1]

Cotic said:

HowardB said:

My thoughts are they are in some serious trouble:

1,. I buy a car because it will be efficient, nope - they lied
2,. I buy a car as the VED will be lower, nope - they lied
3,. I buy a car as the BIK will be lower, nope - they lied

I have a case against VW,.
The government has a case against VW for loss of VED and BIK

all in all not a good place to be,...

I wouldn't stand up in court with that if I were you! The emissions equipment which VW have tampered with largely only effect NOx (Nitric Oxide and Nitrogen Dioxide), there would probably have been no appreciable difference to CO2, and therefore efficiency, VED or BIK figures. In fact, without this equipment operating the chances are that the efficiency, and carbon emissions are actually lower. Your best chance of a case against VW is that the car simply isn't as clean as you were led to believe; or wait until the cars been in for the recall and then complain when its 0-60 time has increased by 5 seconds.

Interesting one. As far as a VW owner taking VW to court in the UK is concerned, then I'm guessing they'd be trying to go for some kind of misrepresentation claim. To make that stick, you have to prove you were induced to enter into a contract by the misrepresentation in question. So, VW owner, was it the lower emissions appealing to your heartfelt desire to help save the planet, or the 0% finance deal, 3 years free servicing and the extra options the dealer chucked in that actually induced you to buy the car?

[burningdinos]

I just saw this on sniff petrol

[PhantomPH]

Europa1 said:

So, VW owner, was it the lower emissions appealing to your heartfelt desire to help save the planet, or the 0% finance deal, 3 years free servicing and the extra options the dealer chucked in that actually induced you to buy the car?

To all the people wishing VAG die because of this, I can only assume you must have really enjoyed the last financial crisis and are desperate to relive those heady days? China/VAG/Euro-zone...anyone with access to their daily investment valuations, will have been watching them tank by 10% over the last month or two - imagine how things will look when a huge player like VAG causes massive market adjustment.

Anyone with half a brain will be hoping that really this is a storm in a teacup, VAG sort it out quickly and plainly in a way that sees it all just vanish into memory ASAP. Certainly not stoking the reactionary, pitchfork-waving, Daily Mail, celery-sucking fire of 'all car companies are evil'.

[Composite Guru]

PhantomPH said:

To all the people wishing VAG die because of this, I can only assume you must have really enjoyed the last financial crisis and are desperate to relive those heady days? China/VAG/Euro-zone...anyone with access to their daily investment valuations, will have been watching them tank by 10% over the last month or two - imagine how things will look when a huge player like VAG causes massive market adjustment.

Anyone with half a brain will be hoping that really this is a storm in a teacup, VAG sort it out quickly and plainly in a way that sees it all just vanish into memory ASAP. Certainly not stoking the reactionary, pitchfork-waving, Daily Mail, celery-sucking fire of 'all car companies are evil'.

Well said.

[tylerama]

Oilchange said:

I am not a VAG fan at all. I hope they get taken to the cleaners.

Lets assume you're a Honda fan and they were found to be doing the same thing. Would you be happy for them to get off scott free ? (Who is Scott Free anyway ?)

[loose cannon]

The trouble is its so enjoyable watching VW squirm childish yes but I don't care tbh
They deserve what they get IMO. it could turn out that others fall foul also,
I love my renaultsports but if Renault come under fire for instance for a similar thing
I'm not going to come crowing on here how hard done by they are, if you cheat you deserve to be punished regardless of who what and were, I don't remember many not laying the boot in to rover etc on here ! The only people crying foul on here are people that generally own a vag product and don't like the fact there fashion magnet is under scrutiny which for me makes it all the more amusing, I shall partake in the piss taking regardless of the manufacturer and they will deserve it for lying

[SPMX5]

PhantomPH said:

stoking the reactionary, pitchfork-waving, Daily Mail, celery-sucking fire

Brilliantly worded!

Never ceases to amaze how riled up people get on here about VW.

[Oilchange]

No idea who Scott Free is either but If Honda were in the same position I would Chuckle too...

tylerama said:

Oilchange said:

I am not a VAG fan at all. I hope they get taken to the cleaners.

Lets assume you're a Honda fan and they were found to be doing the same thing. Would you be happy for them to get off scott free ? (Who is Scott Free anyway ?)

[Contigo]

Cracking article in today's Times about VW and Porsche Family.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/business/industries/...