RE: Smouldering ruins: PH Blog
Discussion
TooMany2cvs said:
Either everybody else can pass emissions tests, whilst VAG are the only lazy, feckless, cheating no-good incompetents in the entire global motor industry who can't get within a country mile, or VAG are just the only ones who've been caught so far.
You really do need to get some facts instead of guessing and speculating.Diesel emissions requirements are MUCH tighter in USA than in Europe and most of the rest of the world. That's why diesels in USA need AdBlue and similar clean-up technologies.
But of course, you may know better...
"The generous view is the car makers simply create engines to the letter of the law, meaning our cars are currently built to achieve lab tested CO2 and mpg figures with actual real-world performance a secondary concern"
without try to digress, it could be argued that it's the same with schools teaching kids to pass exams and not gain knowledge.
Any strict rules where organisations are judged will get them aiming for those targets only and not focus of what's actually important. happens the world over.
without try to digress, it could be argued that it's the same with schools teaching kids to pass exams and not gain knowledge.
Any strict rules where organisations are judged will get them aiming for those targets only and not focus of what's actually important. happens the world over.
spyker138 said:
Why is this complicated? - they deliberately cheated and lied. The product is not what is says on the label, worse that that they marketed the hell out of it being 'clean', when it wasn't. So they have broken the law and broken the trust of their customers. It's pretty basic and no amount of saying the regulations are misguided changes that. If you don't like the rules, don't play the game, and/or take a lead to change the rules.
BTW this WAS an engineers solution.
Well said!BTW this WAS an engineers solution.
They knowingly cheated which is more than slightly different to getting 45mpg rather than the stated 55mpg.
An engineers solution that was signed off at the relevant senior levels. Just smacks of arrogance. Unfortunately a trait in history.
The whole company is now tainted.
In terms of the future of diesel given the recent rumblings, this will just add fuel to the fire for the Government propaganda machine.
The world and his wife has always known that diesel is dirty, it's just the Govt allowed its propagation under CO2 readings rather than the real world obviously "Inhaling soot" and doing my lungs in.....
It will be be interesting for sure.
spyker138 said:
Why is this complicated? - they deliberately cheated and lied. The product is not what is says on the label, worse that that they marketed the hell out of it being 'clean', when it wasn't. So they have broken the law and broken the trust of their customers. It's pretty basic and no amount of saying the regulations are misguided changes that. If you don't like the rules, don't play the game, and/or take a lead to change the rules.
BTW this WAS an engineers solution.
Well said.BTW this WAS an engineers solution.
This is deceptive and misleading conduct, which in many jurisdictions, is a criminal offence, not a civil offence. That means jail time.
And why is it deceptive and misleading? Because they promised XXmpg, yet they bloody well knew it was all crap. Standard excuses would be trotted out to cover their arses (driving style, etc).
I hope they get nailed to the wall, personally.
And so should diesel owners. Is it just me, or does anyone else think the value of these cars is going to take a hit? I'd be pissed off if I bought a car, believed in what I was told, and then found it was worth even 1p less than it was supposed to be, through no fault of my own (other than stupidly believing the salesperson).
Twill be very interesting to see just how deep the penalties go globally.
And why is it deceptive and misleading? Because they promised XXmpg, yet they bloody well knew it was all crap. Standard excuses would be trotted out to cover their arses (driving style, etc).
I hope they get nailed to the wall, personally.
And so should diesel owners. Is it just me, or does anyone else think the value of these cars is going to take a hit? I'd be pissed off if I bought a car, believed in what I was told, and then found it was worth even 1p less than it was supposed to be, through no fault of my own (other than stupidly believing the salesperson).
Twill be very interesting to see just how deep the penalties go globally.
spyker138 said:
Why is this complicated? - they deliberately cheated and lied. The product is not what is says on the label, worse that that they marketed the hell out of it being 'clean', when it wasn't. So they have broken the law and broken the trust of their customers. It's pretty basic and no amount of saying the regulations are misguided changes that. If you don't like the rules, don't play the game, and/or take a lead to change the rules.
BTW this WAS an engineers solution.
Yep, anyone who has seen the VW "sickly sweet your children's health is safe with us" adverts in the US selling this "clean diesel tech" would agree they deserve all that their hubris has brought upon them. BTW this WAS an engineers solution.
Too clever by half....
big_rob_sydney said:
This is deceptive and misleading conduct, which in many jurisdictions, is a criminal offence, not a civil offence. That means jail time.
And why is it deceptive and misleading? Because they promised XXmpg, yet they bloody well knew it was all crap. Standard excuses would be trotted out to cover their arses (driving style, etc).
I hope they get nailed to the wall, personally.
And so should diesel owners. Is it just me, or does anyone else think the value of these cars is going to take a hit? I'd be pissed off if I bought a car, believed in what I was told, and then found it was worth even 1p less than it was supposed to be, through no fault of my own (other than stupidly believing the salesperson).
Twill be very interesting to see just how deep the penalties go globally.
You do realise that this is not about mpg - it is concerning NOx emissions?And why is it deceptive and misleading? Because they promised XXmpg, yet they bloody well knew it was all crap. Standard excuses would be trotted out to cover their arses (driving style, etc).
I hope they get nailed to the wall, personally.
And so should diesel owners. Is it just me, or does anyone else think the value of these cars is going to take a hit? I'd be pissed off if I bought a car, believed in what I was told, and then found it was worth even 1p less than it was supposed to be, through no fault of my own (other than stupidly believing the salesperson).
Twill be very interesting to see just how deep the penalties go globally.
So pleased that the diesel lie is being exposed, finally. Even the best modern diesels emit a noxious odous stink from their tailpipes and yet we've been told that they are far better for you than something like my 10 year old petrol Mazda which burns little oil and shows pretty pretty clean MOT emissions readings, but costs me £265 a year in VED because it has a Co2 rating of 190 g/km or something.
I've always said that an engine which typically leaves owners having to thrash it before an MOT so it can pass the emission readings is not the last word in clean emissions technology!
How ironic also that the darling of the middle classes VW has been caught with its trousers down and hurrah for smaller firms like Mazda who have gone their own way with Sky Activ technology. The typical tailgating Golf TDI blue motion driver (and boy they are everywhere) will be a little less smug on my commute from now on!
All the customers bleating on about how they were deceived are, IMO, just professional victims looking for some compo.
I personally believe that VAG have done the consumers a favour. Without this emissions test defeat software, they wouldn't be able to drive a 40mpg (real world) European car in the US.
It is unlikely the regulatory authorities are going to levy fines on the customers, VAG will foot the bill and the customers will continue to reap the benefits of driving a car which is more economical that the legislation allows.
I personally believe that VAG have done the consumers a favour. Without this emissions test defeat software, they wouldn't be able to drive a 40mpg (real world) European car in the US.
It is unlikely the regulatory authorities are going to levy fines on the customers, VAG will foot the bill and the customers will continue to reap the benefits of driving a car which is more economical that the legislation allows.
davepoth said:
The two are intrinsically linked, since this is all about burning stuff. If you want the car to meet the NOx requirements in the real world, the fuel economy and performance will suffer.
As has been missed by others in this thread the VAG issue is primarily about cleaning up the exhaust gases with catalysts and not about combustion itself. Catalyst does not mean the sort of precious metal cat you have on a petrol car - it means reacting the exhaust with urea or ammonia to produce nitrogen and water. Hence the use of AdBlue and similar materials in USA diesel cars.
morgrp said:
Burwood said:
i dont profess to know much but the Add Blue Urea whatsit absorbs the gasses before it leaves the pipe. Ergo, same fuel consumed, lower emissions. Makes sense to me
Ask any trucker about add blue and they'll tell you it's utter s
te I fully agree on this. It was all spurred on by these mpg kings and motoring magazines.
Next other form of transport that stinks severly are many of these flippin mopeds. They stink to high heavens many of them. How do they allow them to have such dated and stinking engines for something of 50cc is beyond me in this day and age. I would rather drive behind an old truck instead of these hairdryers on wheels.
Next other form of transport that stinks severly are many of these flippin mopeds. They stink to high heavens many of them. How do they allow them to have such dated and stinking engines for something of 50cc is beyond me in this day and age. I would rather drive behind an old truck instead of these hairdryers on wheels.
GreenArrow said:
So pleased that the diesel lie is being exposed, finally. Even the best modern diesels emit a noxious odous stink from their tailpipes and yet we've been told that they are far better for you than something like my 10 year old petrol Mazda which burns little oil and shows pretty pretty clean MOT emissions readings, but costs me £265 a year in VED because it has a Co2 rating of 190 g/km or something.
I've always said that an engine which typically leaves owners having to thrash it before an MOT so it can pass the emission readings is not the last word in clean emissions technology!
How ironic also that the darling of the middle classes VW has been caught with its trousers down and hurrah for smaller firms like Mazda who have gone their own way with Sky Activ technology. The typical tailgating Golf TDI blue motion driver (and boy they are everywhere) will be a little less smug on my commute from now on!
I've always said that an engine which typically leaves owners having to thrash it before an MOT so it can pass the emission readings is not the last word in clean emissions technology!
How ironic also that the darling of the middle classes VW has been caught with its trousers down and hurrah for smaller firms like Mazda who have gone their own way with Sky Activ technology. The typical tailgating Golf TDI blue motion driver (and boy they are everywhere) will be a little less smug on my commute from now on!
Ozzie Osmond said:
As has been missed by others in this thread the VAG issue is primarily about cleaning up the exhaust gases with catalysts and not about combustion itself.
Catalyst does not mean the sort of precious metal cat you have on a petrol car - it means reacting the exhaust with urea or ammonia to produce nitrogen and water. Hence the use of AdBlue and similar materials in USA diesel cars.
No, that's wrong - there are two different technologies. The Lean NOx Trap is the other one. It doesn't work as well as SCR, but it is cheaper and doesn't involve adBlue, which is why it was fitted to smaller engines for VAG, and for older cars. If you look at the original university study, it was the Lean NOx trap equipped Jetta that was 40 times over the limit, and the SCR equipped Passat that was 'only' 20 times over the limit. Catalyst does not mean the sort of precious metal cat you have on a petrol car - it means reacting the exhaust with urea or ammonia to produce nitrogen and water. Hence the use of AdBlue and similar materials in USA diesel cars.
Ozzie Osmond said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Either everybody else can pass emissions tests, whilst VAG are the only lazy, feckless, cheating no-good incompetents in the entire global motor industry who can't get within a country mile, or VAG are just the only ones who've been caught so far.
You really do need to get some facts instead of guessing and speculating.Diesel emissions requirements are MUCH tighter in USA than in Europe and most of the rest of the world. That's why diesels in USA need AdBlue and similar clean-up technologies.
But of course, you may know better...
morgrp said:
Ask any trucker about add blue and they'll tell you it's utter ste
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