RE: Model X marks the spot
Discussion
Fittster said:
J4CKO said:
Its coming, there is a lot of development of alternatives to Lithium batteries, remember the IC engine and all its components have had decades of development and a bit of a cosy symbiosis between car manufacturers and the oil producers, most car manufacturers have just not bothered or paid lip service, they want fossil fuels to carry on, as do the oil companies.
Batteries are hardly a new thing, they have been about since 1748. If after 250 years no one has developed one that's suitable to power a car I'm not sure its likely to happen in the next 20 years.Batteries have been getting better year on year, around 10% additional capacity per year IIRC. That means in 20 years we will have 3x the range or they will be 1/3 of the size.
ORD said:
Let's say 250, to be extremely generous. 80% of that is 200. So it takes 30 minutes of charging for 200 miles of range. That's not good enough, especially when there are not many superchargers around.
As I have said, EVs are currently only suitable as city cars or cars for people who dont mind hanging around at service stations for hours!
Owners will tell you it doesn't really work like that out on the road. If you need to do more than 200 miles in a day and want to wait no longer than 5 mins which gives you about 30 miles ish more then the car isnt for you. As I have said, EVs are currently only suitable as city cars or cars for people who dont mind hanging around at service stations for hours!
Out of the large amount of tesla owners on the Facebook group there is just 1 owner who bought a 60 kW tesla as a local run about and keeps another car for long journeys. The rest just drive normally.
It's just quite rare to do that mileage but when you do you also rarely go from completely full to completely empty. Superchargers are quite well spaced. You dont usually spend the full time there. However there are gaps but 6 new locations are going in in the uk, all done by early next year. Plus they are installing destination chargers at shopping centres and hotels all over the uk.
Bottom line it's an evolving space which suits some but not others, especially in its infancy. I hope tesla owners don't become hardcore advocates of the brand in posts like this. It's a very accessible brand for anyone to experience and hopefully buy in 2017/18. I get a lot of questions and I mean a lot. Nearly every time I get out of the car and I always try to give realistic advice.
Edited by bp1000 on Friday 2nd October 20:30
ORD said:
Let's say 250, to be extremely generous. 80% of that is 200. So it takes 30 minutes of charging for 200 miles of range. That's not good enough, especially when there are not many superchargers around.
As I have said, EVs are currently only suitable as city cars or cars for people who dont mind hanging around at service stations for hours!
It is more than good enough for me. I look forward to doing my normal trips to northern Italy without having to pay for fuel. There are more than enough superchargers to cover any of my usual routes already. Roll on the model 3.As I have said, EVs are currently only suitable as city cars or cars for people who dont mind hanging around at service stations for hours!
ORD said:
98elise said:
ORD said:
Dark85 said:
Sorry but how is 300miles a crap range?
Frankly if you're driving more than that you should be stopping for a break anyway, and if you can get access to a supercharger half an hour is a perfectly reasonable time to stop.
It is crap because:-Frankly if you're driving more than that you should be stopping for a break anyway, and if you can get access to a supercharger half an hour is a perfectly reasonable time to stop.
(1) 300 miles is a massive overestimate. Let's say 200 to be really generous.
(2) That means it needs a recharge during any long journey and always after a long journey.
(3) Re-charging takes bloody ages.
A stated range of 500 (real range therefore over 300) is probably about the minimum before you can stop worrying about range as a downside.
2. Normal driving means you need a recharge after about 5 hours of driving, and you can get to 80% in about 30 minutes at a supercharge station. Thats suitable for most people.
3. As above rechanging dosn't take ages.
EV's may not be for you but they will suit most people.
As I have said, EVs are currently only suitable as city cars or cars for people who dont mind hanging around at service stations for hours!
The average person does 25miles per day, so a 250-300 mile range is just fine. You may need to drive 500 miles a day and not stop for breaks, but most people don't. If you do then an EV is not for you. You may need a diesil, a hybrid, or a rex.
bodhi said:
Lol, as you said earlier you were becoming a bit of a fanboy, and it really is beginning to show.
I don't think the appeal of ICEs has anything to do with manliness (if you'd met me you'd know that's definitely not the case), i think it's more to do with the fact that they are a bloody versatile bit of kit, powering everything from bikes to cars, lorries to boats, can be made dirt cheaply, don't require any particularly rare metals in order to function, don't run out of acceleration at high speeds (thanks to those hyper complicated gearboxes you mentioned), and are at the end of the day, quite a lot of fun
Just to be pedantic....rare earth metals are not rare, it refers to their distribution I don't think the appeal of ICEs has anything to do with manliness (if you'd met me you'd know that's definitely not the case), i think it's more to do with the fact that they are a bloody versatile bit of kit, powering everything from bikes to cars, lorries to boats, can be made dirt cheaply, don't require any particularly rare metals in order to function, don't run out of acceleration at high speeds (thanks to those hyper complicated gearboxes you mentioned), and are at the end of the day, quite a lot of fun
I've never in my life done a car journey that a Model-S's range would have been a handicap for.
Having to go to a petrol station to fill up, however, is a right royal pain in the arse. An EV would be far more convenient and versatile than an ICE powered car for me.
Having to go to a petrol station to fill up, however, is a right royal pain in the arse. An EV would be far more convenient and versatile than an ICE powered car for me.
Edited by kambites on Friday 2nd October 21:00
kambites said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
kambites said:
I've never in my life done a car journey that a Model-S's range would have been a handicap for.
You need to get out more.It's not so much about the longest stint without a recharge. It's that the whole point of a car is that you aren't tied to locations like you are with public transport. A car that needs one of a few places to recharge and then takes half an hour just isn't realistic for a lot of people. I cannot remember the last time I stopped at a service station for more than 10 minutes in my car. And I certainly wouldn't want to have to do it anytime I started out with less than a full tank on a long journey.
As for range, owners tend to say two completely inconsistent things - that they are nailing the car off the mark all the time and that they get huge range out of it. It's one or the other. It would be like me saying I rag my car and cruise at high speeds but also get 30mpg. Ain't gonna happen. If Tesla says 300, I would be amazed if I got more than 250.
kambites said:
I've never in my life done a car journey that a Model-S's range would have been a handicap for.
Having to go to a petrol station to fill up, however, is a right royal pain in the arse. An EV would be far more convenient and versatile than an ICE powered car for me.
Agreed. I do a 135mile (round trip) commute each day along the M25. I have to refuel every few days and it adds about 15 minutes to an already long drive. Its a right pain in the arse.Having to go to a petrol station to fill up, however, is a right royal pain in the arse. An EV would be far more convenient and versatile than an ICE powered car for me.
Edited by kambites on Friday 2nd October 21:00
I'd much rather pull up at home and stick a cable in the car, or do the same at work.
As soon as I can afford an EV, I'm getting one as a daily driver. It will never replace my elise though.
Different people have different requirements I guess. For me, having to go to a petrol station to fill my car up is a pain; being able to "refuel" it in my own garage at almost no cost would be enormously more convenient. The only trip I've ever done in my life where a Tesla would have been the slightest bit inconvenient wasn't in my own car anyway. If I have to hire an ICE powered car once every ten-twenty years to manage certain trips I'm sure I can live with that.
Obviously if you can't charge at home it's not viable, but beyond that most people simply don't do car journeys which a Tesla couldn't cope with perfectly well. There's no way the Tesla and its ilk are going to completely replace ICE powered cars, clearly they'll never be suitable for everyone but they don't need to be particularly.
Obviously if you can't charge at home it's not viable, but beyond that most people simply don't do car journeys which a Tesla couldn't cope with perfectly well. There's no way the Tesla and its ilk are going to completely replace ICE powered cars, clearly they'll never be suitable for everyone but they don't need to be particularly.
Edited by kambites on Friday 2nd October 21:35
bp1000 said:
Owners will tell you it doesn't really work like that out on the road. If you need to do more than 200 miles in a day and want to wait no longer than 5 mins which gives you about 30 miles ish more then the car isnt for you.
Out of the large amount of tesla owners on the Facebook group there is just 1 owner who bought a 60 kW tesla as a local run about and keeps another car for long journeys. The rest just drive normally.
It's just quite rare to do that mileage but when you do you also rarely go from completely full to completely empty. Superchargers are quite well spaced. You dont usually spend the full time there. However there are gaps but 6 new locations are going in in the uk, all done by early next year. Plus they are installing destination chargers at shopping centres and hotels all over the uk.
Bottom line it's an evolving space which suits some but not others, especially in its infancy. I hope tesla owners don't become hardcore advocates of the brand in posts like this. It's a very accessible brand for anyone to experience and hopefully buy in 2017/18. I get a lot of questions and I mean a lot. Nearly every time I get out of the car and I always try to give realistic advice.
Excellent and informative post. Thank you. Out of the large amount of tesla owners on the Facebook group there is just 1 owner who bought a 60 kW tesla as a local run about and keeps another car for long journeys. The rest just drive normally.
It's just quite rare to do that mileage but when you do you also rarely go from completely full to completely empty. Superchargers are quite well spaced. You dont usually spend the full time there. However there are gaps but 6 new locations are going in in the uk, all done by early next year. Plus they are installing destination chargers at shopping centres and hotels all over the uk.
Bottom line it's an evolving space which suits some but not others, especially in its infancy. I hope tesla owners don't become hardcore advocates of the brand in posts like this. It's a very accessible brand for anyone to experience and hopefully buy in 2017/18. I get a lot of questions and I mean a lot. Nearly every time I get out of the car and I always try to give realistic advice.
Edited by bp1000 on Friday 2nd October 20:30
MarshPhantom said:
I get annoyed with slower than average fuel pumps, convenience is king.
I get annoyed with all fuel pumps, which is why I want an EV. As you say, convenience is king and for me that would mean an EV if there were any that appealed within my buying budget. I'm sure our next family car will be electric - so much more convenient than petrol.
twoblacklines said:
I would love a Tesla, my problem is I live in Cornwall and although moving to Cheshire....there are no charging stations in Cornwall and very little in Cheshire.
I don't think the idea is that anyone uses the super-charging stations regularly. The car is designed to do 99% of its miles charged at home, with the superchargers available to at least make it possible to do long journeys. For someone doing enough long trips for supercharger locations to be that much of an issue, an EV probably isn't the right choice anyway. ORD said:
kambites said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
kambites said:
I've never in my life done a car journey that a Model-S's range would have been a handicap for.
You need to get out more.It's not so much about the longest stint without a recharge. It's that the whole point of a car is that you aren't tied to locations like you are with public transport. A car that needs one of a few places to recharge and then takes half an hour just isn't realistic for a lot of people. I cannot remember the last time I stopped at a service station for more than 10 minutes in my car. And I certainly wouldn't want to have to do it anytime I started out with less than a full tank on a long journey.
As for range, owners tend to say two completely inconsistent things - that they are nailing the car off the mark all the time and that they get huge range out of it. It's one or the other. It would be like me saying I rag my car and cruise at high speeds but also get 30mpg. Ain't gonna happen. If Tesla says 300, I would be amazed if I got more than 250.
The 85kWh pack gets you around 260 real world miles against 300 in the sales blurb. Owners have managed 450miles if you want to go for maximum range, but thats when just considering economy, ie far removed from real driving.
The 90kWh pack is about 300miles at motorway speeds (60-70) which is not being particularly efficient. Peak efficiency is below 30mph. I would expect the 90kWh to get closer to 500 miles on an economy run, but again thats not real world in any way.
98elise said:
Why would you be amazed when thats exactly what real world figures are. If a manufacturer says their car can get 30mpg would you be amazed if it got 25mpg?
The 85kWh pack gets you around 260 real world miles against 300 in the sales blurb. Owners have managed 450miles if you want to go for maximum range, but thats when just considering economy, ie far removed from real driving.
The 90kWh pack is about 300miles at motorway speeds (60-70) which is not being particularly efficient. Peak efficiency is below 30mph. I would expect the 90kWh to get closer to 500 miles on an economy run, but again thats not real world in any way.
60-70 on the motorway proves my point entirely. It's like saying you can get 35mpg out of an M5. Of course you can if you only use the power once in a blue moon and drive it like a 1.6 TDI.The 85kWh pack gets you around 260 real world miles against 300 in the sales blurb. Owners have managed 450miles if you want to go for maximum range, but thats when just considering economy, ie far removed from real driving.
The 90kWh pack is about 300miles at motorway speeds (60-70) which is not being particularly efficient. Peak efficiency is below 30mph. I would expect the 90kWh to get closer to 500 miles on an economy run, but again thats not real world in any way.
A claimed 30mpg would see about 22, if that.
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