EV cars, would you, wouldn't you?
Poll: EV cars, would you, wouldn't you?
Total Members Polled: 427
Discussion
Mr GrimNasty said:
Here is a diagram showing the relative 'damage' done by electric and gasoline cars, this was a scientific study taking into account all the usual pollutants cited.
All EVs do is shift the pollution to the power generation regions, and arguably make it worse over all.
(Sorry it is poor quality, but green = low, red = high and scale is same for both halves of diagram, gas left, EV right.)
What is the primary source of that data?All EVs do is shift the pollution to the power generation regions, and arguably make it worse over all.
(Sorry it is poor quality, but green = low, red = high and scale is same for both halves of diagram, gas left, EV right.)
Mr GrimNasty said:
Here is a diagram showing the relative 'damage' done by electric and gasoline cars, this was a scientific study taking into account all the usual pollutants cited.
All EVs do is shift the pollution to the power generation regions, and arguably make it worse over all.
(Sorry it is poor quality, but green = low, red = high and scale is same for both halves of diagram, gas left, EV right.)
As I understand it, you are misinterpreting that image. The variation in colour is not about shifting of pollution from tailpipe to power station, it is driven by the electricity generating mix of the areas concerned. Essentially, burning coal to power EVs is not very clean. Note also that it is not a well to wheel analysis.All EVs do is shift the pollution to the power generation regions, and arguably make it worse over all.
(Sorry it is poor quality, but green = low, red = high and scale is same for both halves of diagram, gas left, EV right.)
Devil2575 said:
What is the primary source of that data?
http://www.nber.org/papers/w21291From
http://www.nber.org/
otolith said:
Mr GrimNasty said:
Here is a diagram showing the relative 'damage' done by electric and gasoline cars, this was a scientific study taking into account all the usual pollutants cited.
All EVs do is shift the pollution to the power generation regions, and arguably make it worse over all.
(Sorry it is poor quality, but green = low, red = high and scale is same for both halves of diagram, gas left, EV right.)
As I understand it, you are misinterpreting that image. The variation in colour is not about shifting of pollution from tailpipe to power station, it is driven by the electricity generating mix of the areas concerned. Essentially, burning coal to power EVs is not very clean. Note also that it is not a well to wheel analysis.All EVs do is shift the pollution to the power generation regions, and arguably make it worse over all.
(Sorry it is poor quality, but green = low, red = high and scale is same for both halves of diagram, gas left, EV right.)
Gareth79 said:
With the new Leaf the van's battery may get the same upgrade which may push it over the edge of being suitable. Also do check the charger availability on Zap Map, you may find that all your regular long routes are accommodated by enough rapid chargers now.
Also don't worry about the battery - they are coping fine so far, many Leafs have done 80-100k with almost no loss in capacity.
Perhaps, probably more likely they'll use up all the old tech cells on the vans first, they do keep vans a bit behind. That said there's a lot of heavily discounted dealer ex demo/del miles on autotrader right now so hopefully clearing old-tech stock.Also don't worry about the battery - they are coping fine so far, many Leafs have done 80-100k with almost no loss in capacity.
I suppose in answer to the original question posed I'd drive one as soon as something tenables for sale, whether I'm sat in traffic in a diesel/petrol/electric/fart powered vehicle makes little odds but burning about £300/month on diesel makes it tempting. With the lease deals around £200 or so it seems on face to make the vehicle practically free.
Look at the full pollution levels of your ICE car including discovering the oil, pumping it, refining it, getting petrol to the station then dispensing it and finally burning It, then compare it to an electric car.
Besides, myself like many others don't care for the environmental benefits. I'm happy with the several £k it saves me a year, less time wasted it petrol stations and a much better day to day driving experience.
Besides, myself like many others don't care for the environmental benefits. I'm happy with the several £k it saves me a year, less time wasted it petrol stations and a much better day to day driving experience.
300bhp/ton said:
Nothing sinister. Just curious to the impact an EV's range might have.
That chart clearly shows that at 25mph with the AC off you could get 380 miles range, but with the AC on it drops massively to just over 250 miles. That's a massive difference. So I was just curious how much additional impact you'd have on range if you had the wipers, lights and stereo also on (heated seats or whatever too).
This isn't specifically with the Tesla, but any EV. As range is ultimately the dictating point on if an EV is at all viable to a potential user.
A/C is the killer. Auto style A/C is very inefficient compared to modern domestic reverse cycle kit, so there's room for improvement yet.That chart clearly shows that at 25mph with the AC off you could get 380 miles range, but with the AC on it drops massively to just over 250 miles. That's a massive difference. So I was just curious how much additional impact you'd have on range if you had the wipers, lights and stereo also on (heated seats or whatever too).
This isn't specifically with the Tesla, but any EV. As range is ultimately the dictating point on if an EV is at all viable to a potential user.
Heat is not so bad.
Think how fast a closed car would become unbearably hot with 1 bar of a standard 1kw heater (500 watts) on in the footwell.
Heating would take on average a few hundred watts.
It would be interesting to compare fuel used/hour between an EV stationary with AC or heater on, and an ICE vehicle ditto.
If the ICE car had to idle all the time to run the AC or heater, I expect it would be a clear loser. If it had intelligent stop / start, I think it would probably come out ahead.
Also how long to empty the tank / battery in those conditions.
I'm off to do some rough numbers...
People always trot out that the EV just moves the emissions, which is undeniably true but isnt that the problem of the governments, power companies and the population to lobby for cleaner energy sources rather than any fundemental deficiency of the EV.
We are now aware of how much crap diesels spew out (where people are generally around to breathe it), it is quite clear the love affair is over with diesels in particular and to a lesser extent petrols.
The big questions is how to generate enough electricity through renewables, 25 percent of electricity generated last year was via renewables and it is something I am going to do more reading on.
I am not even all that eco, I drive a V6 in the highest VED band but I love the idea of renewable sources of electricity powering EV's, the eco side is a benefit but it appeals more to me more in the fact its an elegant, clean, quiet and efficient solution.
Also, just to add, I am not saying its perfect, there is always the cost to build cars, the batteries need rare metals etc etc, humans will always have an impact on the planet but perhaps it is time to reign it in a bit ?
We are now aware of how much crap diesels spew out (where people are generally around to breathe it), it is quite clear the love affair is over with diesels in particular and to a lesser extent petrols.
The big questions is how to generate enough electricity through renewables, 25 percent of electricity generated last year was via renewables and it is something I am going to do more reading on.
I am not even all that eco, I drive a V6 in the highest VED band but I love the idea of renewable sources of electricity powering EV's, the eco side is a benefit but it appeals more to me more in the fact its an elegant, clean, quiet and efficient solution.
Also, just to add, I am not saying its perfect, there is always the cost to build cars, the batteries need rare metals etc etc, humans will always have an impact on the planet but perhaps it is time to reign it in a bit ?
J4CKO said:
People always trot out that the EV just moves the emissions, which is undeniably true but isnt that the problem of the governments, power companies and the population to lobby for cleaner energy sources rather than any fundemental deficiency of the EV.
We are now aware of how much crap diesels spew out (where people are generally around to breathe it), it is quite clear the love affair is over with diesels in particular and to a lesser extent petrols.
The big questions is how to generate enough electricity through renewables, 25 percent of electricity generated last year was via renewables and it is something I am going to do more reading on.
I am not even all that eco, I drive a V6 in the highest VED band but I love the idea of renewable sources of electricity powering EV's, the eco side is a benefit but it appeals more to me more in the fact its an elegant, clean, quiet and efficient solution.
Also, just to add, I am not saying its perfect, there is always the cost to build cars, the batteries need rare metals etc etc, humans will always have an impact on the planet but perhaps it is time to reign it in a bit ?
The answer re renewable generation is that every plausibly sane step is already being taken in this direction. A huge proportion of consumer bills is attributable to clean energy generation and transmission, and it will increase massively over the next 10 years. It is arguable that we already have more than the economically optimal amount of green generation, but we will be paying through the nose for a little bit more of it. It is astonishingly expensive stuff.We are now aware of how much crap diesels spew out (where people are generally around to breathe it), it is quite clear the love affair is over with diesels in particular and to a lesser extent petrols.
The big questions is how to generate enough electricity through renewables, 25 percent of electricity generated last year was via renewables and it is something I am going to do more reading on.
I am not even all that eco, I drive a V6 in the highest VED band but I love the idea of renewable sources of electricity powering EV's, the eco side is a benefit but it appeals more to me more in the fact its an elegant, clean, quiet and efficient solution.
Also, just to add, I am not saying its perfect, there is always the cost to build cars, the batteries need rare metals etc etc, humans will always have an impact on the planet but perhaps it is time to reign it in a bit ?
If we were to accept that consumer energy bills should go through the roof (i.e. thousands of pounds per household), we could increase renewable energy generation a lot more.
ORD said:
The answer re renewable generation is that every plausibly sane step is already being taken in this direction. A huge proportion of consumer bills is attributable to clean energy generation and transmission, and it will increase massively over the next 10 years. It is arguable that we already have more than the economically optimal amount of green generation, but we will be paying through the nose for a little bit more of it. It is astonishingly expensive stuff.
If we were to accept that consumer energy bills should go through the roof (i.e. thousands of pounds per household), we could increase renewable energy generation a lot more.
Really? The last time I heard it was 9% of bills that was attributable to energy efficiency policies. While that's not insignificant, it's not what I'd call huge.If we were to accept that consumer energy bills should go through the roof (i.e. thousands of pounds per household), we could increase renewable energy generation a lot more.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance...
ORD said:
J4CKO said:
People always trot out that the EV just moves the emissions, which is undeniably true but isnt that the problem of the governments, power companies and the population to lobby for cleaner energy sources rather than any fundemental deficiency of the EV.
We are now aware of how much crap diesels spew out (where people are generally around to breathe it), it is quite clear the love affair is over with diesels in particular and to a lesser extent petrols.
The big questions is how to generate enough electricity through renewables, 25 percent of electricity generated last year was via renewables and it is something I am going to do more reading on.
I am not even all that eco, I drive a V6 in the highest VED band but I love the idea of renewable sources of electricity powering EV's, the eco side is a benefit but it appeals more to me more in the fact its an elegant, clean, quiet and efficient solution.
Also, just to add, I am not saying its perfect, there is always the cost to build cars, the batteries need rare metals etc etc, humans will always have an impact on the planet but perhaps it is time to reign it in a bit ?
The answer re renewable generation is that every plausibly sane step is already being taken in this direction. A huge proportion of consumer bills is attributable to clean energy generation and transmission, and it will increase massively over the next 10 years. It is arguable that we already have more than the economically optimal amount of green generation, but we will be paying through the nose for a little bit more of it. It is astonishingly expensive stuff.We are now aware of how much crap diesels spew out (where people are generally around to breathe it), it is quite clear the love affair is over with diesels in particular and to a lesser extent petrols.
The big questions is how to generate enough electricity through renewables, 25 percent of electricity generated last year was via renewables and it is something I am going to do more reading on.
I am not even all that eco, I drive a V6 in the highest VED band but I love the idea of renewable sources of electricity powering EV's, the eco side is a benefit but it appeals more to me more in the fact its an elegant, clean, quiet and efficient solution.
Also, just to add, I am not saying its perfect, there is always the cost to build cars, the batteries need rare metals etc etc, humans will always have an impact on the planet but perhaps it is time to reign it in a bit ?
If we were to accept that consumer energy bills should go through the roof (i.e. thousands of pounds per household), we could increase renewable energy generation a lot more.
Are the costs in setting up the renewables or ongoing maintenance ? I know it sort of looks like a wind turbine is a case of build it and hook it up but I am guessing that they cost a lot to build, but what I am not sure about is how much work they are to keep going, have fished close to the ones int he sea off Rhyl and it did occur that it is not a very hospitable environment.
Also, solar panels, install them, do they degrade over time, am guessing they need cleaning,
What are the other types, tidal, hydro ?
I voted yes as I'd happily have a Tesla but the more 'humdrum' stuff leaves me cold so if they were the only option I'd probably vote no.
I would still want an ICE car in the garage for fun as well but the daily commute would be more than tolerable (and doable) in an electric car for me.
I would still want an ICE car in the garage for fun as well but the daily commute would be more than tolerable (and doable) in an electric car for me.
J4CKO said:
People always trot out that the EV just moves the emissions, which is undeniably true but isnt that the problem of the governments, power companies and the population to lobby for cleaner energy sources rather than any fundemental deficiency of the EV.
We are now aware of how much crap diesels spew out (where people are generally around to breathe it), it is quite clear the love affair is over with diesels in particular and to a lesser extent petrols.
The big questions is how to generate enough electricity through renewables, 25 percent of electricity generated last year was via renewables and it is something I am going to do more reading on.
I am not even all that eco, I drive a V6 in the highest VED band but I love the idea of renewable sources of electricity powering EV's, the eco side is a benefit but it appeals more to me more in the fact its an elegant, clean, quiet and efficient solution.
Also, just to add, I am not saying its perfect, there is always the cost to build cars, the batteries need rare metals etc etc, humans will always have an impact on the planet but perhaps it is time to reign it in a bit ?
The line about moving emissions ignores two major differences between mobile and fixed power plants : We are now aware of how much crap diesels spew out (where people are generally around to breathe it), it is quite clear the love affair is over with diesels in particular and to a lesser extent petrols.
The big questions is how to generate enough electricity through renewables, 25 percent of electricity generated last year was via renewables and it is something I am going to do more reading on.
I am not even all that eco, I drive a V6 in the highest VED band but I love the idea of renewable sources of electricity powering EV's, the eco side is a benefit but it appeals more to me more in the fact its an elegant, clean, quiet and efficient solution.
Also, just to add, I am not saying its perfect, there is always the cost to build cars, the batteries need rare metals etc etc, humans will always have an impact on the planet but perhaps it is time to reign it in a bit ?
1/ A power plant has (potentially) much better control of the continious combustion process than a car lighting the fire 50 times a second,
2/ The size and weight of any after treatment plant is almost irrelevant: all that matters is cost and efficiency.
Devil2575 said:
ORD said:
The answer re renewable generation is that every plausibly sane step is already being taken in this direction. A huge proportion of consumer bills is attributable to clean energy generation and transmission, and it will increase massively over the next 10 years. It is arguable that we already have more than the economically optimal amount of green generation, but we will be paying through the nose for a little bit more of it. It is astonishingly expensive stuff.
If we were to accept that consumer energy bills should go through the roof (i.e. thousands of pounds per household), we could increase renewable energy generation a lot more.
Really? The last time I heard it was 9% of bills that was attributable to energy efficiency policies. While that's not insignificant, it's not what I'd call huge.If we were to accept that consumer energy bills should go through the roof (i.e. thousands of pounds per household), we could increase renewable energy generation a lot more.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance...
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