EV cars, would you, wouldn't you?
Poll: EV cars, would you, wouldn't you?
Total Members Polled: 427
Discussion
Mr2Mike said:
durbster said:
Yep, which begs the question why nobody seems to be making an electric off-road vehicle.
A motor in each corner generating massive amounts of torque would be amazing off road wouldn't it?
Hub motors mean huge unsprung mass.A motor in each corner generating massive amounts of torque would be amazing off road wouldn't it?
AW111 said:
Heat and range would be the problem. An off-roader may be grinding up hill in low gear at 3/4 power for an hour.
A tesla would be travelling at what, 100 mph for that power setting?
Yes, those would be issues. You can actively cool, at the expense of further energy use. An EV stranded off road is going to be harder to get going again than a fuel powered one. Might be an issue for people in countries like the US where people actually use their off-road vehicles for significant distances off road. Probably as irrelevant in the UK as the off-road capability is in the first place for most users.A tesla would be travelling at what, 100 mph for that power setting?
ORD said:
Devil2575 said:
ORD said:
The answer re renewable generation is that every plausibly sane step is already being taken in this direction. A huge proportion of consumer bills is attributable to clean energy generation and transmission, and it will increase massively over the next 10 years. It is arguable that we already have more than the economically optimal amount of green generation, but we will be paying through the nose for a little bit more of it. It is astonishingly expensive stuff.
If we were to accept that consumer energy bills should go through the roof (i.e. thousands of pounds per household), we could increase renewable energy generation a lot more.
Really? The last time I heard it was 9% of bills that was attributable to energy efficiency policies. While that's not insignificant, it's not what I'd call huge.If we were to accept that consumer energy bills should go through the roof (i.e. thousands of pounds per household), we could increase renewable energy generation a lot more.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance...
ORD said:
Devil2575 said:
Ok, so show me the evidence to support the "huge proportion" statement.
Do your own Googling, you lazy git! Ofgem is a good place to start.From what I can see some green energy plans do cost a little bit more but where not talking a hugh difference.
J4CKO said:
People always trot out that the EV just moves the emissions, which is undeniably true but isnt that the problem of the governments, power companies and the population to lobby for cleaner energy sources rather than any fundemental deficiency of the EV.
We are now aware of how much crap diesels spew out (where people are generally around to breathe it), it is quite clear the love affair is over with diesels in particular and to a lesser extent petrols.
The big questions is how to generate enough electricity through renewables, 25 percent of electricity generated last year was via renewables and it is something I am going to do more reading on.
I am not even all that eco, I drive a V6 in the highest VED band but I love the idea of renewable sources of electricity powering EV's, the eco side is a benefit but it appeals more to me more in the fact its an elegant, clean, quiet and efficient solution.
Also, just to add, I am not saying its perfect, there is always the cost to build cars, the batteries need rare metals etc etc, humans will always have an impact on the planet but perhaps it is time to reign it in a bit ?
Even if we just moved the same pollution then it would be better. We used to crap in the streets but it better to move it somewhere else and deal with it there. Central generation is way more efficient though.We are now aware of how much crap diesels spew out (where people are generally around to breathe it), it is quite clear the love affair is over with diesels in particular and to a lesser extent petrols.
The big questions is how to generate enough electricity through renewables, 25 percent of electricity generated last year was via renewables and it is something I am going to do more reading on.
I am not even all that eco, I drive a V6 in the highest VED band but I love the idea of renewable sources of electricity powering EV's, the eco side is a benefit but it appeals more to me more in the fact its an elegant, clean, quiet and efficient solution.
Also, just to add, I am not saying its perfect, there is always the cost to build cars, the batteries need rare metals etc etc, humans will always have an impact on the planet but perhaps it is time to reign it in a bit ?
Yes vote. Basically because it would suit the majority of our journeys, but at the moment the technology, range and charging infrastructure isn't enough to make it our only car. When the current runabout has a problem, probably electrical such is life these days, which makes economic repair questionable then it will replaced by an EV, no question.
For example we've had this car from new, it's a small petrol hatchback on an 02 plate, so about 13.5 years, 48k miles.
In all that time it's been outside Worcestershire only 10 times. On only one of those trips would it have not been practical to use an EV, about 4 full charges in the day. Not impossible but not sensible. On three of the trips one charge during the day would have done it easily, and all the others were within the Zoe /Leaf range on a single charge.
So bearing in mind it could be parked two spaces away from the office door and connected up to free electricity, why wouldn't you?
For example we've had this car from new, it's a small petrol hatchback on an 02 plate, so about 13.5 years, 48k miles.
In all that time it's been outside Worcestershire only 10 times. On only one of those trips would it have not been practical to use an EV, about 4 full charges in the day. Not impossible but not sensible. On three of the trips one charge during the day would have done it easily, and all the others were within the Zoe /Leaf range on a single charge.
So bearing in mind it could be parked two spaces away from the office door and connected up to free electricity, why wouldn't you?
98elise said:
J4CKO said:
People always trot out that the EV just moves the emissions, which is undeniably true but isnt that the problem of the governments, power companies and the population to lobby for cleaner energy sources rather than any fundemental deficiency of the EV.
We are now aware of how much crap diesels spew out (where people are generally around to breathe it), it is quite clear the love affair is over with diesels in particular and to a lesser extent petrols.
The big questions is how to generate enough electricity through renewables, 25 percent of electricity generated last year was via renewables and it is something I am going to do more reading on.
I am not even all that eco, I drive a V6 in the highest VED band but I love the idea of renewable sources of electricity powering EV's, the eco side is a benefit but it appeals more to me more in the fact its an elegant, clean, quiet and efficient solution.
Also, just to add, I am not saying its perfect, there is always the cost to build cars, the batteries need rare metals etc etc, humans will always have an impact on the planet but perhaps it is time to reign it in a bit ?
Even if we just moved the same pollution then it would be better. We used to crap in the streets but it better to move it somewhere else and deal with it there. Central generation is way more efficient though.We are now aware of how much crap diesels spew out (where people are generally around to breathe it), it is quite clear the love affair is over with diesels in particular and to a lesser extent petrols.
The big questions is how to generate enough electricity through renewables, 25 percent of electricity generated last year was via renewables and it is something I am going to do more reading on.
I am not even all that eco, I drive a V6 in the highest VED band but I love the idea of renewable sources of electricity powering EV's, the eco side is a benefit but it appeals more to me more in the fact its an elegant, clean, quiet and efficient solution.
Also, just to add, I am not saying its perfect, there is always the cost to build cars, the batteries need rare metals etc etc, humans will always have an impact on the planet but perhaps it is time to reign it in a bit ?
Emissions from central generation are both easier to monitor, easier to abate and it is far more likely to be move towards cleaner generation than vehicles are.
otolith said:
AW111 said:
Heat and range would be the problem. An off-roader may be grinding up hill in low gear at 3/4 power for an hour.
A tesla would be travelling at what, 100 mph for that power setting?
Yes, those would be issues. You can actively cool, at the expense of further energy use. An EV stranded off road is going to be harder to get going again than a fuel powered one. Might be an issue for people in countries like the US where people actually use their off-road vehicles for significant distances off road. Probably as irrelevant in the UK as the off-road capability is in the first place for most users.A tesla would be travelling at what, 100 mph for that power setting?
Devil2575 said:
ORD said:
Devil2575 said:
Ok, so show me the evidence to support the "huge proportion" statement.
Do your own Googling, you lazy git! Ofgem is a good place to start.From what I can see some green energy plans do cost a little bit more but where not talking a hugh difference.
ORD said:
Devil2575 said:
ORD said:
Devil2575 said:
Ok, so show me the evidence to support the "huge proportion" statement.
Do your own Googling, you lazy git! Ofgem is a good place to start.From what I can see some green energy plans do cost a little bit more but where not talking a hugh difference.
I go back to the fact that you can get a green electricity tarrif for not that much more than a standard one. If it was a lot more expensive then why don't they charge you a lot more for it?
AW111 said:
Also the traditional SUV raises 2 fingers at aerodynamics, which is bad for an EV.
I think an Audi Allroad / Subaru outback would be a good niche for an EV 4wd.
Not that I disagree. But I think a car such as this with EV power would be something I'd genuinely be interested in, assuming it still retained it's off road ability.I think an Audi Allroad / Subaru outback would be a good niche for an EV 4wd.
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I don't have too much to add here, think most of us are on the same page. EV cars at this point won't replace the weekend car, but would certainly use one for commuting (if I commuted by car).
I do think at the moment however we're really missing the middle of the price range EV car which would be incredibly attractive to a large number of people. I think the key points needed would be:
3 series/c class sized
range around 200 miles
0-60 around 6 seconds
Cost £30-35k
I realise this is EXACTLY what the model III is planned to be, and I think its this segment that will really swing things for EV. The question is whether any manufacturer can make such a car profitably, and in enough volume. (or more accurately, when someone can do this).
I do think at the moment however we're really missing the middle of the price range EV car which would be incredibly attractive to a large number of people. I think the key points needed would be:
3 series/c class sized
range around 200 miles
0-60 around 6 seconds
Cost £30-35k
I realise this is EXACTLY what the model III is planned to be, and I think its this segment that will really swing things for EV. The question is whether any manufacturer can make such a car profitably, and in enough volume. (or more accurately, when someone can do this).
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: If people are saying "no" I'd like to know if they've driven one.
I would absolutely, however right now I still think the pricing is wrong i.e. it's a lifestyle choice rather than a financial one if you do significant mileage.
Once everyone work out this isn't true they'll sell like hot cakes. I compared buying an i3REX to a 120d. Same options. I would absolutely, however right now I still think the pricing is wrong i.e. it's a lifestyle choice rather than a financial one if you do significant mileage.
The i3 came in at £33k after grant, the 120d about £31kish, but just under £30k after discounts.
Then look at the running cost and tax savings... and the i3 comes out on top.
BiK tax is much lower - about £500 vs £1500ish. Plus if you are lucky enough to own your own company there's something called the First Year Writing down allowance for ulatra low emissions vehicles - which means you deduct the cost of the car from your turn over before working out the profit. Saved me £6,600 on my corporation tax this year! Though you add it back in when selling the car, but when it's depreciated down to £10k hopefully! Total saving about £4,600.
In my case even more - as I have free charging at my clients premises. So in 16,000 miles the separate meter connected to the car charger say's I've used 2,700 kWh of electric at home or about £216 charged over night off peak. That would buy you 187 litres / 41 gallons of diesel (If it still costs £1.15) That's about 2,200 miles worth (@55mpg). Or put the other way - To do 16,000 miles in the 120d would have cost me £1,500. That's in 9 months - I'm a high mileage driver. I'm currently doing 86 miles a day round trip. So anyone can do it. Well anyone who's work place has electricity. It would be worth offering to pay for an external 13amp charge socket yourself given the fuel savings. I don't think many people commute more than 60 miles - which is the absolute minimum you'd get from an i3 in winter. Yeah it looks a bit odd, and it's a bit high (I'd much prefer it looked like an RX8), but it gets a lot of attention. Add 5 minutes to journey plans if you are going near a motorway services rapid charger, or a public charge point. People have lots of questions.
You could run a Lotus Elise for trackdays with the fuel savings! And in the mean time be faster off the lights than anything that doesn't have launch control engaged. No revs, no clutch , no gears, no handbrake. Just stamp on the go pedal and before everyone else's wheels start to turn you'll already have cleared the junction. I still giggle 9 months after having the car. It's not bad at overtaking on B roads either. On the motorway is pulls away from TDis at 55mph when trucks finally finish overtaking. Guess they leave it in top gear. Runs out of puff at 95 though. Which is probably a good thing as you can just get points instead of a ban. I actually picked up 3 points already! 1st time in 20 years. Ooops. I was seeing if I could do the full 86 miles on a single charge(yes). Came into a 30 a bit hot as instead of using the regen I was letting the car roll. Didn't matter that for the previous 41 miles I'd been 5 miles under the motorway limit. Bar stewards has parked a van 100m from the 60 down to 30. No option to do an awareness course.
Eventually there will be more EVs in more segments, but as something interesting to try out... you would be foolish not to go for a test drive. Be warned - I did that and the next day I went and paid a deposit! Man maths and budgets went out the window... I just wanted one.
[edit] just to add.. the longest I've driven in a day is 360 miles. About 50/50 on the REX and battery with 2 rapid charges. So the only disadvantage of an EV (With a REX) is an occasional extra stop on long journeys. However the plus side is that I haven't had to queue at a petrol station since the second may bank holiday. 6,600 miles since I last filled up the 9 litre REX tank! 15 seconds to plug in at night and about 30 at work. Add up the seconds and I spend less time refuelling an electric car every week than a petrol one.
Edited by TransverseTight on Wednesday 7th October 13:09
300bhp/ton said:
Not that I disagree. But I think a car such as this with EV power would be something I'd genuinely be interested in, assuming it still retained it's off road ability.
Electric power would be great for serious off-road use - max torque available from standstill, no clutch to overheat.You could theoretically run 4 motors, each with a short driveshaft, to get maximum traction from each wheel.
I reckon another 5 years of battery developement should do it.
Actually the early Jimmy and similar had an effective cruising speed of 60 mph (less for the canvas topped ones) before wind, road and engine noise became a chore, and highway overtaking was rare and exiting.
If you were prepared to put up with those speed and power limits in a new car, it's possible now.
Devil2575 said:
I can't see anything in that to support your assertion.
I go back to the fact that you can get a green electricity tarrif for not that much more than a standard one. If it was a lot more expensive then why don't they charge you a lot more for it?
Because the "green tariff" is completely notional. Electricity is fungible. You are not paying for green energy. Its a gimmick. I go back to the fact that you can get a green electricity tarrif for not that much more than a standard one. If it was a lot more expensive then why don't they charge you a lot more for it?
The costs of electricity are calculated in accordance with various complex calculations and regulatory schemes. The bottom line is that, if we had no green energy, electricity bills would be very much lower.
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