BMW Design - What happened?
Discussion
gregs656 said:
The enormous current BMW range can't be sustainable, can it?
It's diluting the brand for me. The creep of FWD isn't helping, it will be a crying shame when the 1 series goes FWD on the mini platform.
BMW have posted record profits so i think it can be. They are just covering all the market and making sure they have a car to meet every customer needs. It's diluting the brand for me. The creep of FWD isn't helping, it will be a crying shame when the 1 series goes FWD on the mini platform.
They also need to ensure they keep up with Audi and Mercedes in regards to the range they offer.
LankyLegoHead said:
I would literally rather be seen in a Ssangyong than a 1 Series. I started off by just despising its looks, but now its the type of people who drive it as well.
Oh congratulations, you've 110% Financed a White 116i, and now you think you're the s
t. I've driven a 120d and a 130i, both were bitterly dissapointing. Numb, boring things to drive. The interiors were cheap in feel too. My old E46 330ci was pretty unreliable, but at least it didnt snap cam chains, rattle and crash through every bump in the road. (even with its eBay coilovers on, which werent my choice btw)
Can you tell I'm not a fan of 1 Series BMW's yet?
My 130i didn't snap cam chains, the leather interior was pretty solid and the N52 was a sweet engine. Perhaps you shouldn't paint the picture when you obviously bought a poor example of an E46. As for being numb and boring, well i'll just say you're wrong and if you had spent any proper time in one you'd probably agree. A 130i with a Birds kit is an exceptional road car. Anyway. what particular car choice makes you the 'sOh congratulations, you've 110% Financed a White 116i, and now you think you're the s
t. I've driven a 120d and a 130i, both were bitterly dissapointing. Numb, boring things to drive. The interiors were cheap in feel too. My old E46 330ci was pretty unreliable, but at least it didnt snap cam chains, rattle and crash through every bump in the road. (even with its eBay coilovers on, which werent my choice btw)Can you tell I'm not a fan of 1 Series BMW's yet?
t' and better than anyone else?I think it rather depends what you're comparing it to. The 1-series obviously feels numb, fat and poorly suspended compared to an Elise or a Cayman but that's not really a sensible comparison. It's no worse than any of its competition and better than most.
The interior quality, I haven't a clue about. I don't do interior-cuddling.
The interior quality, I haven't a clue about. I don't do interior-cuddling.
kambites said:
I think it rather depends what you're comparing it to. The 1-series obviously feels numb, fat and poorly suspended compared to an Elise or a Cayman but that's not really a sensible comparison. It's no worse than any of its competition and better than most.
The interior quality, I haven't a clue about. I don't do interior-cuddling.
As stock they are a bit harsh but the chassis is good. Whatever he drives now, it must be quite exotic?The interior quality, I haven't a clue about. I don't do interior-cuddling.
I think Kambites had it right much earlier, in as much as you take the basis of a car, add the required safety legislation, sprinkle new CAD based toys allowing weird and wonderful (but not always neccesary) metal manipulation, and along with all the toys the marketing men suggest we need increasing the substance of the thing, the results will be and are subjectively worse.
Oh and I forgot the yankee lead me-too rush to drive an SUV, meaning perfectly acceptable hatches now have to look butch and be jacked-up, offering nothing more than the aesthetic of the go anywhere vibe. (and before anyone mentions it, sitting it up high is a very weak excuse as is being able to get in without bending a bit...).
Modern design is now very 'male' alpha agressive pointy lights and body panels, again as said the base version must look hard, the middle level looks top flight and the top flight look race track...progress? maybe a bit....but it is missing the 'female' aspect of car design, stuff that can't seem to be done anymore - Cobra, Muira, GTO, E-type, performance looks without aggression. I actually think the current 991/Cayman/Boxster do a very good job of style, proportion and intent with curves.
BMW though...the line up for me is generically 'alpha' aggressive, but to an extent they always have been, the comment about Germanic design being ugly is about right, they're bullish and technical, design via engineering rather than art.
Ubiquity doesn't help either...Bangle's cars are seen as ok now despite the initial screams of "my eyes!".....familiarty breeds acceptance...
1 series - tragic - unless 'racetrack spec'
2 series - the same
2 series MPV - just no
3 series - dull unless racetrack spec
4 series - same
4 series GT - no
4 series coupe - a bit better
5 series - not bad actually, quite classy on the whole, restrained really.
5 series GT - no
6 series - not bad actually, quite classy on the whole, restrained really.
6 series 4 door - better still - sweet spot?
7 series - bland
X range - just no
Z4 - fresh
Mini - all of it, just awful now.
Rolls Royce - well they're 'angrier' than tye used to be...Germanic influence writ large.
No better or worse than Audi, Jag or Mercedes
Take design language and manipulate to fit the sector. Marketing then takes over, brand image clamering to take share from the others. BMW were better first and are just trying to hold on to their position.
For me as soon as the 3 series sold more than a Mondeo, the writing was on the wall and only increasing product types keeps them ahead of the game.
At some point it will capitulate IMO. I hope so, I'd like to see more art on the road (Alfa 8C), more performance stuff with less 'anger'.
...and yes I studied industrial and product design for 5 years, and explains why I drive a pretty (but angry!) car whose driving experience doesn't quite live upto the image - V6 Black Prodrive Brera :hehe
Interestingly enough (?) the shortlist for my next car has a 981 Boxster or Z4 at the top of the list... so I'll relaim the 'experience' bit hopefully.
Oh and I forgot the yankee lead me-too rush to drive an SUV, meaning perfectly acceptable hatches now have to look butch and be jacked-up, offering nothing more than the aesthetic of the go anywhere vibe. (and before anyone mentions it, sitting it up high is a very weak excuse as is being able to get in without bending a bit...).
Modern design is now very 'male' alpha agressive pointy lights and body panels, again as said the base version must look hard, the middle level looks top flight and the top flight look race track...progress? maybe a bit....but it is missing the 'female' aspect of car design, stuff that can't seem to be done anymore - Cobra, Muira, GTO, E-type, performance looks without aggression. I actually think the current 991/Cayman/Boxster do a very good job of style, proportion and intent with curves.
BMW though...the line up for me is generically 'alpha' aggressive, but to an extent they always have been, the comment about Germanic design being ugly is about right, they're bullish and technical, design via engineering rather than art.
Ubiquity doesn't help either...Bangle's cars are seen as ok now despite the initial screams of "my eyes!".....familiarty breeds acceptance...
1 series - tragic - unless 'racetrack spec'
2 series - the same
2 series MPV - just no
3 series - dull unless racetrack spec
4 series - same
4 series GT - no
4 series coupe - a bit better
5 series - not bad actually, quite classy on the whole, restrained really.
5 series GT - no
6 series - not bad actually, quite classy on the whole, restrained really.
6 series 4 door - better still - sweet spot?
7 series - bland
X range - just no
Z4 - fresh
Mini - all of it, just awful now.
Rolls Royce - well they're 'angrier' than tye used to be...Germanic influence writ large.
No better or worse than Audi, Jag or Mercedes
Take design language and manipulate to fit the sector. Marketing then takes over, brand image clamering to take share from the others. BMW were better first and are just trying to hold on to their position.
For me as soon as the 3 series sold more than a Mondeo, the writing was on the wall and only increasing product types keeps them ahead of the game.
At some point it will capitulate IMO. I hope so, I'd like to see more art on the road (Alfa 8C), more performance stuff with less 'anger'.
...and yes I studied industrial and product design for 5 years, and explains why I drive a pretty (but angry!) car whose driving experience doesn't quite live upto the image - V6 Black Prodrive Brera :hehe
Interestingly enough (?) the shortlist for my next car has a 981 Boxster or Z4 at the top of the list... so I'll relaim the 'experience' bit hopefully.
Edited by Quickmoose on Tuesday 6th October 10:27
As an owner of a Z4.... love it - there I said it... I dont cut hair and Im hetro sexual so you can bin the stereotypes right now....
You by an M3 and there on the drive next to you sits a 316..... same with an M5 sat next to you there is a 520 diesel..... Im not knocking the saloons these are great cars and wonderful drivers machines. but with the Z you have something unique and different. I can put my hand out the door and touch the rear wheel. When you drive it the chassis is adjustable and provides great feedback - once you ditch those awful runflats....
It was an indulgence - a purchase that was about having something different something to drive and enjoy and it has provided many enjoyable miles over the two years or so that I have had it.
Oh and it looks stunning.....
LankyLegoHead said:
I would literally rather be seen in a Ssangyong than a 1 Series. I started off by just despising its looks, but now its the type of people who drive it as well.Oh congratulations, you've 110% Financed a White 116i, and now you think you're the st.
Couldn't agree with you more t. 
- it's all about image and it's crucial not be associated with those who clearly can't afford a 1-series. Besides, no other car buyers use finance, just 1-series drivers.
- people purposely choose white 116is to show off and wind people up.
- looks/design are really objective parameters and the 1-series is just shocking to look at, irrespective of the blind minority who happen to quite like it.
gizlaroc said:
Yeah I got that, I'm the same to be honest.
At least this thread was a bit less aggressive than the Mercedes one last week, where people were only buying new cars to 'impress the neighbours' or 'because they are new money' etc. etc. Some right tts on that one.
At least this thread was a bit less aggressive than the Mercedes one last week, where people were only buying new cars to 'impress the neighbours' or 'because they are new money' etc. etc. Some right t
ts on that one. LankyLegoHead said:
I would literally rather be seen in a Ssangyong than a 1 Series. I started off by just despising its looks, but now its the type of people who drive it as well.
Oh congratulations, you've 110% Financed a White 116i, and now you think you're the st. I've driven a 120d and a 130i, both were bitterly dissapointing. Numb, boring things to drive. The interiors were cheap in feel too. My old E46 330ci was pretty unreliable, but at least it didnt snap cam chains, rattle and crash through every bump in the road. (even with its eBay coilovers on, which werent my choice btw)
Can you tell I'm not a fan of 1 Series BMW's yet?
Spoke too soon! Oh congratulations, you've 110% Financed a White 116i, and now you think you're the s
t. I've driven a 120d and a 130i, both were bitterly dissapointing. Numb, boring things to drive. The interiors were cheap in feel too. My old E46 330ci was pretty unreliable, but at least it didnt snap cam chains, rattle and crash through every bump in the road. (even with its eBay coilovers on, which werent my choice btw)Can you tell I'm not a fan of 1 Series BMW's yet?
gizlaroc said:
I just looked to see what he was driving, could it be an old 300SL? BMW 507? DB9? An old Alfa Spider maybe?
Errrrr, No! A VW Golf!
The ultimate white goods car or all cars.
I now realise he was being ironic. Very good, very, very good. I doff my cap to your fine wit sir!
I think when slagging off other PHers cars that for full disclosure you ought to reveal that you drive a BMW X3 and an Audi A4 S-Line estate. (The imagine).Errrrr, No! A VW Golf!
The ultimate white goods car or all cars.
I now realise he was being ironic. Very good, very, very good. I doff my cap to your fine wit sir!
I think the 3GT has its place, it's incredibly useful for what I need it for (bike in the boot), and it's a lot nicer than the A5 Sportback.
However, the 4GC would do exactly the same thing, albeit in a slightly lower and shorter format. I'd have gone for a 4GC if it had been announced when I got the 3GT. Similarly, the 4GC does pretty much everything the 3 saloon does, without the hatchback - I can see it being particularly popular as an alternative to the 3 saloon, 3GT, and possibly even the 3 Touring if the hatch is that important.
I don't see the point in the 2 Active Tourer though - I saw one and thought it was a Kia until I could see the badge. Horrible little thing, the BMW take on the Merc B.
However, the 4GC would do exactly the same thing, albeit in a slightly lower and shorter format. I'd have gone for a 4GC if it had been announced when I got the 3GT. Similarly, the 4GC does pretty much everything the 3 saloon does, without the hatchback - I can see it being particularly popular as an alternative to the 3 saloon, 3GT, and possibly even the 3 Touring if the hatch is that important.
I don't see the point in the 2 Active Tourer though - I saw one and thought it was a Kia until I could see the badge. Horrible little thing, the BMW take on the Merc B.
nickfrog said:
LankyLegoHead said:
I would literally rather be seen in a Ssangyong than a 1 Series. I started off by just despising its looks, but now its the type of people who drive it as well.Oh congratulations, you've 110% Financed a White 116i, and now you think you're the st.
Couldn't agree with you more t. - it's all about image and it's crucial not be associated with those who clearly can't afford a 1-series. Besides, no other car buyers use finance, just 1-series drivers.
- people purposely choose white 116is to show off and wind people up.
- looks/design are really objective parameters and the 1-series is just shocking to look at, irrespective of the blind minority who happen to quite like it.
We have just given a 5dr 1 series back and I liked the look of it. Ours was only a Sport so missed all the addtional bodykit. When a 116i has about 140bhp, and does 0-60 in 8.4secs I suppose thats quick enough for most people day to day so why not get one with the extra bodykit.
Yes these can attract a certain type of individuals but so do Audi's, Mercs. The problem becoming a successful brand.
I quite like the F10 5 series, reminds me in some ways of the E34 and E39 (they are huge though, parked next to one the other day and was dwarfed!), I didn't like the E60 when it first came out, but it still manages to look quite fresh, especially given the oldest ones are 12 years old! I think the 2 series mpv thing is gopping, and I hate the 5 gt, but on the whole the rest of the range doesn't look hideous. Not as classy and elegant as the older ones, but as has been said before that is due to regs and fashion, so they are only moving with the times. After all, when the wraps come off the new 5 series next year and it looked exactly like and E34, everyone would complain it looked old!
rohrl said:
I think when slagging off other PHers cars that for full disclosure you ought to reveal that you drive a BMW X3 and an Audi A4 S-Line estate. (The imagine).
And yourself, a Cupra? What does it matter, opinions...The point was he was slating the 1 series yet drove something which, let's be honest, is a bit bland? Looks like he then went to a Skoda and now a GT86, hardly the design classic itself..but he obviously likes it
StuntmanMike said:
pits said:
drivingaddict said:
Methinks my 4 Gran Coupe looks stunning.
But I dislike (speaking of design only) the X1/X4/X6, 2 Series Active Tourer and 3/5 GT. Horrible cars.
So you have a 4 door version of the 2 door version car, which is to compete with the 4 door version of the 4 door version of the 2 door version car, then we will call this 4 door version of the 2 door version car a coupe, because apparently coupes now have 4 f
king doors, well done BMW you've outdone yourself there.I can't wait until BMW release the new 2 door version of the 4 door version of their 4 door version car, BMW 3 Petite coupe.
rohrl said:
gizlaroc said:
I just looked to see what he was driving, could it be an old 300SL? BMW 507? DB9? An old Alfa Spider maybe?
Errrrr, No! A VW Golf!
The ultimate white goods car or all cars.
I now realise he was being ironic. Very good, very, very good. I doff my cap to your fine wit sir!
I think when slagging off other PHers cars that for full disclosure you ought to reveal that you drive a BMW X3 and an Audi A4 S-Line estate. (The imagine).Errrrr, No! A VW Golf!
The ultimate white goods car or all cars.
I now realise he was being ironic. Very good, very, very good. I doff my cap to your fine wit sir!
yonex said:
And yourself, a Cupra? What does it matter, opinions...
The point was he was slating the 1 series yet drove something which, let's be honest, is a bit bland? Looks like he then went to a Skoda and now a GT86, hardly the design classic itself..but he obviously likes it
He gave his opinion on a BMW design, whether he owns a Golf or an FSO Polonez or whatever is completely irrelevant to the thread.The point was he was slating the 1 series yet drove something which, let's be honest, is a bit bland? Looks like he then went to a Skoda and now a GT86, hardly the design classic itself..but he obviously likes it
A 5 series GT drove past a few days ago and I was deeply offended, I felt outrage at someone disrespecting the community to the point where they would drive something so genuinely disgusting in front of other people. What a hideous, hideous car.
I think the M6 is a handsome car in nearly all guises, the M6 Cabrio I had (F12) was not a good car, but it was a handsome car.
I think the M5 looks pretty chavvy (sorry PHers!).
The M4 is fine and meets the demands of its target demographic of 25-35 year old lads with a bit of finance and a lot to prove perfectly I would say.
The rest are just too boring to comment on, other than one model which has been styled after the original Merc A-Class and as such looks terrible. Though I have not even bothered to find out what model it is. Looked like a 5 door version of the upmarket 2 door version of the 1 series?
I think the M6 is a handsome car in nearly all guises, the M6 Cabrio I had (F12) was not a good car, but it was a handsome car.
I think the M5 looks pretty chavvy (sorry PHers!).
The M4 is fine and meets the demands of its target demographic of 25-35 year old lads with a bit of finance and a lot to prove perfectly I would say.
The rest are just too boring to comment on, other than one model which has been styled after the original Merc A-Class and as such looks terrible. Though I have not even bothered to find out what model it is. Looked like a 5 door version of the upmarket 2 door version of the 1 series?
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