BMW 330i or Mondeo ST220
Discussion
BrownBottle said:
I much prefered the Mk1/2 to the Mk3, it just seemed better in every department including the handling I was disappointed the first time I drove a Mk3 TBH.
I've still got a Mk1 V6 (20 years old next year, s
tty Ford eh) & I prefer it's rawness but the ST220 kills it in the handling department. Not sure what the Mk1 does in every other department that is "better".Dave_ST220 said:
BrownBottle said:
I much prefered the Mk1/2 to the Mk3, it just seemed better in every department including the handling I was disappointed the first time I drove a Mk3 TBH.
I've still got a Mk1 V6 (20 years old next year, stty Ford eh) & I prefer it's rawness but the ST220 kills it in the handling department. Not sure what the Mk1 does in every other department that is "better".Fastdruid said:
RobM77 said:
drivin_me_nuts said:
RobM77 said:
...
On the running costs front, if we can forget the over the top PH love for Ford for one second and be rational, the usual story is that the Ford will go wrong more often and be cheap to fix, but the BMW will go wrong less often and be more expensive to fix. That said, in this day and age most cars are pretty reliable, so we're talking stats rather than what will happen to any one car.
Do you think so?On the running costs front, if we can forget the over the top PH love for Ford for one second and be rational, the usual story is that the Ford will go wrong more often and be cheap to fix, but the BMW will go wrong less often and be more expensive to fix. That said, in this day and age most cars are pretty reliable, so we're talking stats rather than what will happen to any one car.
I'd be more inclined to think that the BMW is more likely to be the broken flake in the box of old car chocolates than the Ford. broken and rusty. Jesus, do E46s rust badly.
Roughly 120k is expected end of life for most if not all cars, 10 years or so so. This is one of the reasons BMW "filled for life" autoboxes s
t themselves at 140k, they *are* filled for the life BMW planned, just owners have this unreasonable idea of wanting to keep them longer!Of course some cars are better at living on after EOL than others but you can get into a world of expensive pain with replacement bushes, suspension (in the case of E46's things like fixing cracked boot floors too!), cooling systems etc and BMW *will* be more expensive than Ford there.
RobM77 said:
It also doesn't take a rocket scientists to look around various high mileage cars and see the Japanese and German pattern emerging. Plenty of my friends are driving 150k+ Hondas, Toyotas, VWs, BMWs etc, but I can't think of any doing that in Fords or Vauxhalls. That's hopefully not seen as an insult to Ford (I wouldn't dare on PH!), because you can buy them cheaper and fix them cheaper, which seems fair to me.
What a load of crap! I think you are confusing longevity with residual value. Ford residuals are pants, most people scrap them when a bill for £200 comes in FFS! For the record I don't see ANY older cars of any make these days, my 1996 is positively a classic these days. Oh, & not all Ford parts are much cheaper than other marques.
Dave_ST220 said:
RobM77 said:
It also doesn't take a rocket scientists to look around various high mileage cars and see the Japanese and German pattern emerging. Plenty of my friends are driving 150k+ Hondas, Toyotas, VWs, BMWs etc, but I can't think of any doing that in Fords or Vauxhalls. That's hopefully not seen as an insult to Ford (I wouldn't dare on PH!), because you can buy them cheaper and fix them cheaper, which seems fair to me.
What a load of crap! I think you are confusing longevity with residual value. Ford residuals are pants, most people scrap them when a bill for £200 comes in FFS! For the record I don't see ANY older cars of any make these days, my 1996 is positively a classic these days. Oh, & not all Ford parts are much cheaper than other marques.
A comment on running costs as someone who did 60 k miles in one (bought at 54k). What went wrong in 60k miles: Clutch failed (failed not wore out) at 78k IIRC - this is a common sort of mileage for this to happen though some report original clutches at north of 140k, the air idle control valve went a bit wonky but was fixed with a spray of carb cleaner, a £34 breather hose split (DIY fix), rear bearings were changed (by me for £35 a time and took all of 30 mins a side), handbrake cables were replaced and at 100k miles a spring broke so for £300 fitted I put it on Eibachs (which with hindsight I'd do as soon as I bought one if I ever buy another.
So I'm not sure the notion that they won't last or will go wrong a lot is quite right. Mine was used and abused and still didn't really cost me much in repairs or have many issues.
If you want RWD you need the BMW but if you can accept that a rather lifelessly set up RWD car might not be as fun as a well setup FWD car then the 220 offers the better drive and I say that as someone who drives a Cayman and much prefers RWD generally. I looked at changing my 220 for a 330 but to drive it didn't come close for someone wanting a slightly engaging/sporty drive. The 3 series is also a lot lot smaller. Leg room is comparable to a Focus and not a Mondeo and the boot is tiny VS the Mondeo. And the 220 has a lot of toys as standard which the Bemmer doesn't. With the technology pack that many have you get auto lights/wipers, park sensors and as standard you get Sony 6CD changer, cruise control, climate control, heated leather Recaros, Xenons etc.
Anyway, go and drive the two and see what you think after that. No one can tell you what you'll like to drive more.
So I'm not sure the notion that they won't last or will go wrong a lot is quite right. Mine was used and abused and still didn't really cost me much in repairs or have many issues.
If you want RWD you need the BMW but if you can accept that a rather lifelessly set up RWD car might not be as fun as a well setup FWD car then the 220 offers the better drive and I say that as someone who drives a Cayman and much prefers RWD generally. I looked at changing my 220 for a 330 but to drive it didn't come close for someone wanting a slightly engaging/sporty drive. The 3 series is also a lot lot smaller. Leg room is comparable to a Focus and not a Mondeo and the boot is tiny VS the Mondeo. And the 220 has a lot of toys as standard which the Bemmer doesn't. With the technology pack that many have you get auto lights/wipers, park sensors and as standard you get Sony 6CD changer, cruise control, climate control, heated leather Recaros, Xenons etc.
Anyway, go and drive the two and see what you think after that. No one can tell you what you'll like to drive more.
A very fair summary Paul 
As many of us have said, the Mondeo is a FWD car (boo) set up to be sporty (hurray!), whereas the BMW is a RWD chassis (hurray!) set up to be an all rounder (hmm). Which you prefer is very personal.
I don't really see why that upsets so many people - there's nothing worse than taking your BMW or Mercedes into a dealer and then quivering at the thought of the repair bill - that doesn't really tend to happen with Fords.
However, I realise this is PH, so I think I should stop posting as it's always been impossible to discuss Ford rationally on here (that's not aimed at you by the way, your post was really well balanced).
As many of us have said, the Mondeo is a FWD car (boo) set up to be sporty (hurray!), whereas the BMW is a RWD chassis (hurray!) set up to be an all rounder (hmm). Which you prefer is very personal.PaulD86 said:
So I'm not sure the notion that they won't last or will go wrong a lot is quite right. Mine was used and abused and still didn't really cost me much in repairs or have many issues.
To be fair the stuff you listed was as I've described (or tried to describe!) for Ford, lots of little things going wrong that are cheap to fix (I won't stoop so low as to quote what Ford is jokingly said to stand for!). As an example, my wife's Ford Ka had its clutch disintegrate at 50k miles, my friend at work's Focus had the same thing happen (I can't remember the mileage, but it was quite low), and a close friend of mine had two exhausts fail on his Fiesta, but the repair bills for all were really reasonable. I don't really see why that upsets so many people - there's nothing worse than taking your BMW or Mercedes into a dealer and then quivering at the thought of the repair bill - that doesn't really tend to happen with Fords.
However, I realise this is PH, so I think I should stop posting as it's always been impossible to discuss Ford rationally on here (that's not aimed at you by the way, your post was really well balanced).
RobM77 said:
That's exactly my point - it's a matter of preference. Personally I'd far rather drive the E46, but plenty of people would rather be in the ST. Different strokes for different folks as they say...
I'm confused.By your own admission the E46 330 you had was a complete waste of money, dangerous and the worst car you've owned.
Not a Ford fan then?
As for PH - people appear to be equally precious about BMW and Ford.
RobM77 said:
However, I realise this is PH, so I think I should stop posting as it's always been impossible to discuss Ford rationally on here (that's not aimed at you by the way, your post was really well balanced).
I know plenty of people with German & Jap cars who have had faults at low mileages. The point is you seem to imply with Ford it's the norm which it simply isn't. ALL marques have faults & issues, I won't mention that certain German marque that's in the news but I will add a family member had a Passat & got shot after injectors failed, DMF failed, electric handbrake failed (twice), it started to rust on the rear arches. That doesn't sound too different to a Ford to me. Oh, & I'm not interested in defending FMC, I took them to court FFS!Podie said:
RobM77 said:
That's exactly my point - it's a matter of preference. Personally I'd far rather drive the E46, but plenty of people would rather be in the ST. Different strokes for different folks as they say...
I'm confused.By your own admission the E46 330 you had was a complete waste of money, dangerous and the worst car you've owned.
Not a Ford fan then?
As for PH - people appear to be equally precious about BMW and Ford.
My E46 was a broken year 2000 model; they were improved after that. I've driven post 2002 cars that aren't broken and I'm still not a fan personally, but the things I don't like are fairly personal to me, so I would recommend the car to someone without my particular preferences, yes.
Mmm, I wouldn't really say I have strong opinions on Ford either way really. I loved the way the original Ka drove and the latest Fiesta is a jolly good all round package - I'm a fan of both and will always request them if I'm hiring a car in that bracket. The Mondeo is also well received by the press, although I confess I'm not much of a fan. Ford have also produced some iconic engines: the legendary DFV (which amazingly was common in top level motorsport from the late 60s right through to the early 90s, and is still used in most historic F1 and F3000 cars), the 'Crossflow', which lived on in Caterhams for decades; and the Kent, which was still being used in the early Kas, and is still common in motorsport to this day. The GT40 needs no introduction of course! That's all the good. There's bad too of course, but I shan't go into that on PH if that's ok.
I'm merely trying to help the OP out by being realistic about both cars. I'm not a 'fanboy' or 'hater' of either marque really - both have produced good and bad cars and also iconic cars.
I've owned a 1999 Focus from new, it's on 130k now, the only part it's needed that wasn't a consumable was a fuel pump. I'm probably to blame for that going because I've run it out of fuel numerous times!
My parents have a 57 plate Focus, again owned from new. Nothing has gone wrong with that either.
My parents have a 57 plate Focus, again owned from new. Nothing has gone wrong with that either.
RobM77 said:
Ford have also produced some iconic engines: the legendary DFV (which amazingly was common in top level motorsport from the late 60s right through to the early 90s, and is still used in most historic F1 and F3000 cars),
The DFV was Cosworth, not Ford. RobM77 said:
the 'Crossflow', which lived on in Caterhams for decades; and the Kent, which was still being used in the early Kas, and is still common in motorsport to this day.
Cross/Kent.....same engine 
RobM77 said:
That's all the good.
Really? That's EVERYTHING good Ford have done, engine-wise?RobM77 said:
There's bad too of course, but I shan't go into that on PH if that's ok.
It's fine, I don't think we'd all have benefitted from it.RobM77 said:
I'm merely trying to help the OP out by being realistic about both cars. I'm not a 'fanboy' or 'hater' of either marque really - both have produced good and bad cars and also iconic cars.
I've read through the whole thread now, and I don't think you're helping anyone be realistic, to be honest. You gave your opinion, which is that the BMW is the better car as far as you're concerned. Then all of a sudden Fords don't last much beyond 100k miles, PH is Ford-biased and an engine is two different engines.Sorry, but if you're going to throw stone over the hedge, you've got to expect some to come back, and I'm far from a Ford fanboi!
Kitchski said:
RobM77 said:
Ford have also produced some iconic engines: the legendary DFV (which amazingly was common in top level motorsport from the late 60s right through to the early 90s, and is still used in most historic F1 and F3000 cars),
The DFV was Cosworth, not Ford. RobM77 said:
the 'Crossflow', which lived on in Caterhams for decades; and the Kent, which was still being used in the early Kas, and is still common in motorsport to this day.
Cross/Kent.....same engine RobM77 said:
That's all the good.
Really? That's EVERYTHING good Ford have done, engine-wise?RobM77 said:
There's bad too of course, but I shan't go into that on PH if that's ok.
It's fine, I don't think we'd all have benefitted from it.RobM77 said:
I'm merely trying to help the OP out by being realistic about both cars. I'm not a 'fanboy' or 'hater' of either marque really - both have produced good and bad cars and also iconic cars.
I've read through the whole thread now, and I don't think you're helping anyone be realistic, to be honest. You gave your opinion, which is that the BMW is the better car as far as you're concerned. Then all of a sudden Fords don't last much beyond 100k miles, PH is Ford-biased and an engine is two different engines.Sorry, but if you're going to throw stone over the hedge, you've got to expect some to come back, and I'm far from a Ford fanboi!
Regarding your other comments, I was intending to throw no stones at all, and wasn't intending to criticise Ford or the Mondeo, I was just trying to be realistic and discuss the two cars in question as I have experience of both and felt I could help. Maybe you should try reading my posts again? As I said early on, most cars these days are so reliable that reliability shouldn't really be a major factor with a purchase anyway - people should buy what they like.
Sadly, PH seems to have a Ford obsession and if something you say can be interpreted in a way that might be critical of Ford, you get attacked and hounded off the thread. You claim this isn't the case, but how else could my quite gentle and well meaning comments by interpreted in such a way? This happens time and time again. I've probably listed critical things about most manufacturers in my time on PH (today for example that's been Alfa, Honda, Lotus and BMW), but things normally remain quite civil (my Alfa and Honda comments were not responded to and my Lotus and BMW comments had very fair and intelligent responses), if you mention the F word though, god help you!
I just don't think that's the case though, or certainly if it is I haven't seen it. PH has a German car bias in general, whether it comes in BMW, Porsche, Merc or VAG flavours. Either way, it is there.
These days, I don't think there are as many blue oval fanboys as there are German ones. Stuff like VW has overtaken Ford in this country at least, for the common choice. People used to buy Escorts without thinking what else is out there. Now it's Golfs.
I don't see the preciousness over Ford on here that you mention, and like I say, I'm no Ford fanboy. I like French and Italian stuff - I'm usually on the receiving end! I also like FWD cars, which, like the French tin, often gets slated on here. I see preciousness over RWD, but not Ford.
Anyway, the E46 is a good car, I freely admit that. They don't do much for me, and I know them pretty well as I built an E46 M3 Touring. I'd honestly have the Mondeo. More fun, more character, more noise, more practicality, softer seats and less badge, with the added bonus of less cracking around the rear subframe mounts (I know, I know, the bushes will rip out first!) Win.
The only thing I do agree on is that Fords don't feel like they're engineered to last. Ford often will use something plastic (like timing pulleys on later Zetec S engines) where others would use metal. That said, I've had a Fiesta Zetec S on 135k, and a Mondeo ST200 on 150k before. Neither are intergalactic I know, but if they were that bad they'd have struggled. Only thing the Mondy was struggling with was rust. Mechanically it was bob-on.
These days, I don't think there are as many blue oval fanboys as there are German ones. Stuff like VW has overtaken Ford in this country at least, for the common choice. People used to buy Escorts without thinking what else is out there. Now it's Golfs.
I don't see the preciousness over Ford on here that you mention, and like I say, I'm no Ford fanboy. I like French and Italian stuff - I'm usually on the receiving end! I also like FWD cars, which, like the French tin, often gets slated on here. I see preciousness over RWD, but not Ford.
Anyway, the E46 is a good car, I freely admit that. They don't do much for me, and I know them pretty well as I built an E46 M3 Touring. I'd honestly have the Mondeo. More fun, more character, more noise, more practicality, softer seats and less badge, with the added bonus of less cracking around the rear subframe mounts (I know, I know, the bushes will rip out first!) Win.
The only thing I do agree on is that Fords don't feel like they're engineered to last. Ford often will use something plastic (like timing pulleys on later Zetec S engines) where others would use metal. That said, I've had a Fiesta Zetec S on 135k, and a Mondeo ST200 on 150k before. Neither are intergalactic I know, but if they were that bad they'd have struggled. Only thing the Mondy was struggling with was rust. Mechanically it was bob-on.
Wow, bit of a rumble on my little post.
I asked my mechanic once about Ford's quality vs other makes and he made a good point. The german cars like BMWs, typically get bought by people with the income and desire to keep them properly serviced and looked after as they get older. Fords inevitably are seen as a cheap car for families often on lower incomes and aren't lavished with as much TLC. A mate of mine is a good case in point. He never checks the oil on his cars and didn't even know which part of the engine the coolant went in.
So often not fair to bash Ford for what appears to be poor longevity, because any car not looked after properly will have an early death.
A properly looked after modern Ford will last a long time. Look at the high mileage Mk3 Mondeo TDCIs going. Ok, they will have been through at least one DMF/clutch by now, but with 200 or 300K miles on the clock they drive well. My neighbours pampered Mondeo TDCI drove like new with 150K on the clock, not a squeak or rattle and still on the original clutch. It was killed by a blown turbo in the end!
I asked my mechanic once about Ford's quality vs other makes and he made a good point. The german cars like BMWs, typically get bought by people with the income and desire to keep them properly serviced and looked after as they get older. Fords inevitably are seen as a cheap car for families often on lower incomes and aren't lavished with as much TLC. A mate of mine is a good case in point. He never checks the oil on his cars and didn't even know which part of the engine the coolant went in.
So often not fair to bash Ford for what appears to be poor longevity, because any car not looked after properly will have an early death.
A properly looked after modern Ford will last a long time. Look at the high mileage Mk3 Mondeo TDCIs going. Ok, they will have been through at least one DMF/clutch by now, but with 200 or 300K miles on the clock they drive well. My neighbours pampered Mondeo TDCI drove like new with 150K on the clock, not a squeak or rattle and still on the original clutch. It was killed by a blown turbo in the end!
Dave_ST220 said:
I've still got a Mk1 V6 (20 years old next year, stty Ford eh) & I prefer it's rawness but the ST220 kills it in the handling department. Not sure what the Mk1 does in every other department that is "better".
I wasn't referring to the ST's in particular, more the base cars.tty Ford eh) & I prefer it's rawness but the ST220 kills it in the handling department. Not sure what the Mk1 does in every other department that is "better".Much preferred the handling and ride quality of the Mk1 the Mk3 suspension just felt harsh and unyielding. Interior felt like the accountants had got a hold of it a cold harsh environment with bench like seats compared to the plush ones in most Mk1's.
Actually I could say the exact same things about the Mk1 Focus compared to the Mk2, ok maybe not the seats, Mk1 Focus seats weren't great either. In fact I've just thought about the Fiesta Mk4 released not long after the Mk3 Mondeo, it wasn't very good to drive either especially compared to its excellent predecessor. Coincidence? I don't think so.
Mk3 Mondeo, Mk4 Fiesta and Mk2 Focus all early noughties cars and none of them as good to drive as the models they replaced IMO.
Now I'm going to get grief for this but TBH I prefer the Vectra VXR to the ST220. Ignore Clarkson's hatchet-job review; the former is a pretty convincing car...and I say that as someone who's generally not a fan of FWD. The last one I drove was remapped to something like 320 BHP, which could definitely upset the reps in their 2.0 TDIs. Very, very comfortable and refined too. Not as good as the 330i in terms of control weights, feel etc. but one of those cars you could drive all day and still feel human. Like a better sounding and handling 9-5 Aero with a gigantic boot!
Back to the 330i; yes they're set-up as all-rounders (and are bloody good at it) but who says you have to leave it as it is? Whatever you buy would probably benefit from a suspension refresh anyway...
Back to the 330i; yes they're set-up as all-rounders (and are bloody good at it) but who says you have to leave it as it is? Whatever you buy would probably benefit from a suspension refresh anyway...
BrownBottle said:
Dave_ST220 said:
I've still got a Mk1 V6 (20 years old next year, stty Ford eh) & I prefer it's rawness but the ST220 kills it in the handling department. Not sure what the Mk1 does in every other department that is "better".
I wasn't referring to the ST's in particular, more the base cars.tty Ford eh) & I prefer it's rawness but the ST220 kills it in the handling department. Not sure what the Mk1 does in every other department that is "better".Much preferred the handling and ride quality of the Mk1 the Mk3 suspension just felt harsh and unyielding. Interior felt like the accountants had got a hold of it a cold harsh environment with bench like seats compared to the plush ones in most Mk1's.
Actually I could say the exact same things about the Mk1 Focus compared to the Mk2, ok maybe not the seats, Mk1 Focus seats weren't great either. In fact I've just thought about the Fiesta Mk4 released not long after the Mk3 Mondeo, it wasn't very good to drive either especially compared to its excellent predecessor. Coincidence? I don't think so.
Mk3 Mondeo, Mk4 Fiesta and Mk2 Focus all early noughties cars and none of them as good to drive as the models they replaced IMO.
I had a Focus Mk1 1.6 Zetec, perhaps the sweetest most neutral handling FWD car I have ever owned.
In fact, bar the Fiesta, which remains brilliant, I feel Ford isn't the benchmark for FWD handling in bread and butter cars that it was, say 15 years ago when its entire range was class leading....
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