BMW 330i or Mondeo ST220
Discussion
RobM77 said:
The steering was indeed updated in later models when compared to my hideous year 2000 model, but yes, I still found even the updated steering a bit lifeless. I agree though, it's much better than the current MINI's ePAS system (one of the car's few negatives actually, I'm a fan of the MINI) and I must confess that I've spent half of my 20 years of driving in non-PAS cars known for their steering feel. I've driven a late model E46 M3 and I must admit, even that left me a bit cold (other than the differential and the engine, both of which I thought were utterly superb). I think it depends on one's individual priorities; I certainly wouldn't call the post refresh E46s bad cars, no, and it would be my pick in the OP's quandary. I do prefer the drive on the E36 and E90 though and in terms of the OP's question, I am heavily swayed by the position of the major masses and the end the drive goes to, which for me are the key defining features of any car.Maybe I'm not a good arbiter of what represents good steering, but the e46 seems nicely weighted and without excessive over-servo'ing. Perhaps the differences are a bit too subtle for me (or the Average Joe) to easily spot?
Is it possible that your e46 was a bit of a lemon? I'm certainly a realist when it comes to their downfalls, but you do appear to have a real downer on what is a pretty competent, if slightly dull, car.
C70R said:
RobM77 said:
The steering was indeed updated in later models when compared to my hideous year 2000 model, but yes, I still found even the updated steering a bit lifeless. I agree though, it's much better than the current MINI's ePAS system (one of the car's few negatives actually, I'm a fan of the MINI) and I must confess that I've spent half of my 20 years of driving in non-PAS cars known for their steering feel. I've driven a late model E46 M3 and I must admit, even that left me a bit cold (other than the differential and the engine, both of which I thought were utterly superb). I think it depends on one's individual priorities; I certainly wouldn't call the post refresh E46s bad cars, no, and it would be my pick in the OP's quandary. I do prefer the drive on the E36 and E90 though and in terms of the OP's question, I am heavily swayed by the position of the major masses and the end the drive goes to, which for me are the key defining features of any car.Maybe I'm not a good arbiter of what represents good steering, but the e46 seems nicely weighted and without excessive over-servo'ing. Perhaps the differences are a bit too subtle for me (or the Average Joe) to easily spot?
Is it possible that your e46 was a bit of a lemon? I'm certainly a realist when it comes to their downfalls, but you do appear to have a real downer on what is a pretty competent, if slightly dull, car.
Steering in particular is very subjective, and much like throttle response, what some people categorise as a single metric is actual many different things, all of which are subjective and divide opinion. For example, the Elise known for its excellent steering feel, and if the tyre pressures and geo are right, it's amazing, but beyond a certain lock it's non-linear, which is down to a geometry tweak that Lotus had to make to get away without having power steering. That never bothered me, and the Elise has my favourite steering of any road car, but I know some people don't like it, either for that quirk or because they think it simply talks far too much. The Porsche Cayman is another example - its steering is incredibly smooth, precise and accurate, but the actual feel imho is pretty poor and it has a non-linear rack. I don't like it, but some people love it. All I'm trying to say is that 'good steering' can be a bit of a simplistic description, and everyone places different weighting on the different aspects. It's also possible that my memory is poor. Driving good examples of the E36, E46 and E90 back to back would be the only real way of knowing. I should add that I've owned all three models though, and driven quite a few more, so I'd like to think my opinion is reasonably accurate, but all it'll ever be is my opinion for my preferences - everyone's different.
C70R said:
Maybe I'm not a good arbiter of what represents good steering, but the e46 seems nicely weighted and without excessive over-servo'ing. Perhaps the differences are a bit too subtle for me (or the Average Joe) to easily spot?.
I'm guessing he means it lacked feel. Whilst I have no complaints about the E46's steering (at least as far as big heavy saloons go) there is no relation between steering weight and steering feel. Valid points, both.
I must say that I probably don't drive my cars hard often enough to really see the benefits of 'communicative' steering. I'm not a thrasher or a trackday god, so I suppose I can only go by what I experience through lots of run-of-the-mill driving and the occasional short blast. To that end, while it certainly hasn't lit up my life (nor did I expect it to), I don't have any major gripes with the way that the e46 steers. I genuinely can't say I've noticed anything that made me think it was significantly lacking compared to the MX5 or the Golf GTi, but perhaps I'm not driving in a way that gets much benefit from 'steering feel'.
I must say that I probably don't drive my cars hard often enough to really see the benefits of 'communicative' steering. I'm not a thrasher or a trackday god, so I suppose I can only go by what I experience through lots of run-of-the-mill driving and the occasional short blast. To that end, while it certainly hasn't lit up my life (nor did I expect it to), I don't have any major gripes with the way that the e46 steers. I genuinely can't say I've noticed anything that made me think it was significantly lacking compared to the MX5 or the Golf GTi, but perhaps I'm not driving in a way that gets much benefit from 'steering feel'.
C70R said:
Valid points, both.
I must say that I probably don't drive my cars hard often enough to really see the benefits of 'communicative' steering. I'm not a thrasher or a trackday god, so I suppose I can only go by what I experience through lots of run-of-the-mill driving and the occasional short blast. To that end, while it certainly hasn't lit up my life (nor did I expect it to), I don't have any major gripes with the way that the e46 steers. I genuinely can't say I've noticed anything that made me think it was significantly lacking compared to the MX5 or the Golf GTi, but perhaps I'm not driving in a way that gets much benefit from 'steering feel'.
I must say that I probably don't drive my cars hard often enough to really see the benefits of 'communicative' steering. I'm not a thrasher or a trackday god, so I suppose I can only go by what I experience through lots of run-of-the-mill driving and the occasional short blast. To that end, while it certainly hasn't lit up my life (nor did I expect it to), I don't have any major gripes with the way that the e46 steers. I genuinely can't say I've noticed anything that made me think it was significantly lacking compared to the MX5 or the Golf GTi, but perhaps I'm not driving in a way that gets much benefit from 'steering feel'.
I certainly didn't mean to say that the steering was in any way bad. I think we're pretty much in agreement to be honest. I can be very demanding of cars sometimes, thinking more in absolute terms than in relative terms. In absolute terms, there's a fair few things I'd improve about the E46, but in relative terms (relative to its competition), it remains a very solid choice. If you want something quiet and comfortable on the motorway that can also be delicately threaded through a sequence of corners or fly with aplomb down a B road, a 3 series of any generation is a hard car to beat. If, like me, you place a lot of emphasis on weight distribution and handling, then it's pretty much the default choice.OP, this may help you, although less valid points when comparing use cars obviously!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1OBqrfIQOM
Saloon is better obviously
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1OBqrfIQOM
Saloon is better obviously
What horror stories have you heard? Rear bumpers drop on later cars thanks to Ford cost cutting. DMF have been known to let go but doesn't seem any more common than any other car. The worst issue was RUST on <2004 cars thanks to a bodged design, I believe Merc had the same issue though.
I test drove both a couple of years ago and ended up plumping for an E90 330i. It's in SE spec so doesn't have the M-Sport suspension and is ultimately less sporting than the ST220 but I found it more refined and comfortable. And since I was coming from a 350Z which exhibited neither of those attributes, it made quite a nice change, especially as I bought it due to the requirements of impending fatherhood.
The ST220 definitely felt more of a sports car to me and the engine made a nicer noise but I ultimately thought the BMW was a nicer place to be and I do a fair amount of miles for work so that was important to me.
Having said that, I don't think that I'd have been disappointed to own either of them so maybe just see what the best car you can get for your budget is.
The ST220 definitely felt more of a sports car to me and the engine made a nicer noise but I ultimately thought the BMW was a nicer place to be and I do a fair amount of miles for work so that was important to me.
Having said that, I don't think that I'd have been disappointed to own either of them so maybe just see what the best car you can get for your budget is.
lauda said:
The ST220 definitely felt more of a sports car to me and the engine made a nicer noise
I have a E90 330i too and I struggle to see why many rate BMW`s straight six engines so highly because I have had ST24/V6 Ghia X mondeo`s previously and I think that the Duratec Ford V6 trumps it for sound easily so I would imagine the 3 Litre in the ST220 makes a great noise. Nothing wrong overall with the N52 engine as its smooth and pulls pretty well at the redline but for noise and an overall sporty nature it certainly lacks a little something I think and I prefer a V6 engine over a straight six engine every time.
cerb4.5lee said:
I have a E90 330i too and I struggle to see why many rate BMW`s straight six engines so highly
The engines can sound absolutely superb, but they're masked by their standard intake systems. An open air filter with an aluminium feed pipe has turned my E36 328i from nice-but-muted to unbelievably addictive. I'm now squinting at my E46 road car and considering doing the same to it. The lovely thing about induction noise, too, is that it goes away when you don't want it - the car sounds just the same as standard below three-quarters throttle.I can't deny that the Duratec unit in the ST220 sounds brilliant, though, I really like it.. but couldn't buy one knowing that a small stretch would have got me an E90 330i.
McSam said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I have a E90 330i too and I struggle to see why many rate BMW`s straight six engines so highly
The engines can sound absolutely superb, but they're masked by their standard intake systems. An open air filter with an aluminium feed pipe has turned my E36 328i from nice-but-muted to unbelievably addictive. I'm now squinting at my E46 road car and considering doing the same to it. The lovely thing about induction noise, too, is that it goes away when you don't want it - the car sounds just the same as standard below three-quarters throttle.I can't deny that the Duratec unit in the ST220 sounds brilliant, though, I really like it.. but couldn't buy one knowing that a small stretch would have got me an E90 330i.
its been one of the things that frustrates me a lot with BMW`s is how muted they design them and I thought the same with the E92 M3/Z4M I had as well.I suppose they are a luxury manufacturer first and foremost so they are afraid of their cars being too vocal maybe and cram them full of sound deadening and make them as refined as they can be, but if you appreciate noise and the sound of a nice engine like I do they are pretty disappointing as standard.
Maybe I should just grow up a little and just accept them for what they are!
McSam said:
The engines can sound absolutely superb, but they're masked by their standard intake systems. An open air filter with an aluminium feed pipe has turned my E36 328i from nice-but-muted to unbelievably addictive. I'm now squinting at my E46 road car and considering doing the same to it. The lovely thing about induction noise, too, is that it goes away when you don't want it - the car sounds just the same as standard below three-quarters throttle.
I can't deny that the Duratec unit in the ST220 sounds brilliant, though, I really like it.. but couldn't buy one knowing that a small stretch would have got me an E90 330i.
I must admit that I have thought about liberating a little more noise from my 330i. I just don't want to go too far the other way and have it sounding too 'aftermarket'. I can't deny that the Duratec unit in the ST220 sounds brilliant, though, I really like it.. but couldn't buy one knowing that a small stretch would have got me an E90 330i.
As for prices, another reason I ended up with the BMW was that I picked mine up privately for considerably less than the dealer wanted for the Mondeo. They were similar mileage and vintage too.
hmm, if I could pick up a E90 330i for the price of a good ST220, that could swing it.
Is this a mismatched comparison? Not really, both cars have about 220-230 BHP, if you take out the advantage the 330i has on traction, they cover 30-100 in about the same time or thereabouts....
The Mondeo appeals because they have masses of room and my eldest daughter is already 5'10 and legs that go on forever at age 14....also, its rarer. The BMW appeals due to the perfect balance of that RWD chassis and the lovely straight six engine....
...a curve ball thrown today by me into my own debate, I bought a cheap Mk2 MX-5, so...I don't need a 330i simply because I want to drive a RWD car. On a daily all year round driver, a FWD car is fine by me....less bother if it snows too!!
Is this a mismatched comparison? Not really, both cars have about 220-230 BHP, if you take out the advantage the 330i has on traction, they cover 30-100 in about the same time or thereabouts....
The Mondeo appeals because they have masses of room and my eldest daughter is already 5'10 and legs that go on forever at age 14....also, its rarer. The BMW appeals due to the perfect balance of that RWD chassis and the lovely straight six engine....
...a curve ball thrown today by me into my own debate, I bought a cheap Mk2 MX-5, so...I don't need a 330i simply because I want to drive a RWD car. On a daily all year round driver, a FWD car is fine by me....less bother if it snows too!!
GreenArrow said:
hmm, if I could pick up a E90 330i for the price of a good ST220, that could swing it.
Is this a mismatched comparison? Not really, both cars have about 220-230 BHP, if you take out the advantage the 330i has on traction, they cover 30-100 in about the same time or thereabouts....
The Mondeo appeals because they have masses of room and my eldest daughter is already 5'10 and legs that go on forever at age 14....also, its rarer. The BMW appeals due to the perfect balance of that RWD chassis and the lovely straight six engine....
...a curve ball thrown today by me into my own debate, I bought a cheap Mk2 MX-5, so...I don't need a 330i simply because I want to drive a RWD car. On a daily all year round driver, a FWD car is fine by me....less bother if it snows too!!
"Bother" if it snows? Fit the right tyres and the BMW would be even more fun in the snow! Is this a mismatched comparison? Not really, both cars have about 220-230 BHP, if you take out the advantage the 330i has on traction, they cover 30-100 in about the same time or thereabouts....
The Mondeo appeals because they have masses of room and my eldest daughter is already 5'10 and legs that go on forever at age 14....also, its rarer. The BMW appeals due to the perfect balance of that RWD chassis and the lovely straight six engine....
...a curve ball thrown today by me into my own debate, I bought a cheap Mk2 MX-5, so...I don't need a 330i simply because I want to drive a RWD car. On a daily all year round driver, a FWD car is fine by me....less bother if it snows too!!
The Ford's far from a bad car and I'm hardly a badge snob but in this case it'd be E46 all the way. I don't think I've ever driven a more "complete" car and TBH if our Mini JCW doesn't start behaving itself, it'll probably be swapped for one - a 330Ci (coupé)!
Clivey said:
GreenArrow said:
hmm, if I could pick up a E90 330i for the price of a good ST220, that could swing it.
Is this a mismatched comparison? Not really, both cars have about 220-230 BHP, if you take out the advantage the 330i has on traction, they cover 30-100 in about the same time or thereabouts....
The Mondeo appeals because they have masses of room and my eldest daughter is already 5'10 and legs that go on forever at age 14....also, its rarer. The BMW appeals due to the perfect balance of that RWD chassis and the lovely straight six engine....
...a curve ball thrown today by me into my own debate, I bought a cheap Mk2 MX-5, so...I don't need a 330i simply because I want to drive a RWD car. On a daily all year round driver, a FWD car is fine by me....less bother if it snows too!!
"Bother" if it snows? Fit the right tyres and the BMW would be even more fun in the snow! Is this a mismatched comparison? Not really, both cars have about 220-230 BHP, if you take out the advantage the 330i has on traction, they cover 30-100 in about the same time or thereabouts....
The Mondeo appeals because they have masses of room and my eldest daughter is already 5'10 and legs that go on forever at age 14....also, its rarer. The BMW appeals due to the perfect balance of that RWD chassis and the lovely straight six engine....
...a curve ball thrown today by me into my own debate, I bought a cheap Mk2 MX-5, so...I don't need a 330i simply because I want to drive a RWD car. On a daily all year round driver, a FWD car is fine by me....less bother if it snows too!!
The Ford's far from a bad car and I'm hardly a badge snob but in this case it'd be E46 all the way. I don't think I've ever driven a more "complete" car and TBH if our Mini JCW doesn't start behaving itself, it'll probably be swapped for one - a 330Ci (coupé)!
Similarly, the ST220 has always been a favourite of mine. Not sure why, but I do like my Q cars and I know the ST is highly rated by those in the know...
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