RE: BMW M4 GTS - full details
Discussion
The CSL looks the way it does for sound racing reasons. The 2002 was a response to the oil crisis, a way of getting (for its time) strong power from a small engine. It's wilfully turbocharged in character - lag, lag, lag, BOOOOOOOSSSSST - wastegate pssshhhttt - change gear and repeat. The M4 isn't designed for racing, nor is it wilfully turbocharged, it's just devoid of character and crass in design.
RoverP6B said:
The CSL looks the way it does for sound racing reasons. The 2002 was a response to the oil crisis, a way of getting (for its time) strong power from a small engine. It's wilfully turbocharged in character - lag, lag, lag, BOOOOOOOSSSSST - wastegate pssshhhttt - change gear and repeat. The M4 isn't designed for racing, nor is it wilfully turbocharged, it's just devoid of character and crass in design.
M4 isn't designed for racing? So we'll ignore the M4 DTM racers and the Moto GP pace car shall we? Because this M4 GTS, looks awfully to me like a road going version of the latter. Also fair to say the M4's engine is a response to the current made up global worming "crisis", as a way of getting big power from a downsized engine, but thanks to advances in technology the willfully turbocharged character has gone, as we can do things better now.
I'm sorry, I'm failing to see much logic in your argument other than "Waaah I don't like the modern world".
RoverP6B said:
Robbing character isn't improvement. The response to the "global warming crisis" is creating vastly bigger and better-established problems. The M4 DTM is nothing like the M4 road car, sod all in common. The MotoGP pace car is just a tweaked road car, not a racer.
Judging by how many 2002 Turbos that were crashed due to this "character", it's probably for the best they stripped some of it out 
And yes, the Moto GP is a tweaked road car. aka the M4 GTS (they are pretty much identical save for the paint job). It's almost as if they've listened to people who like the Pace Car and decided "I want one of those", and decided to turn it into a production model!
In case you can't tell I'm quite partial to this GTS - subtle it ain't, but then BMW have a history of unsubtle special editions as I've shown. Definitely striking, and if my numbers came up this would be in the garage, along with an E46 CSL, E92 GTS and a V10 M5. And probably a few other BMW's as well....
As stated some people will absolutely lap this up, others won't depending on where their personal preferences lie. I owned a modern performance BMW in the shape of a 335i for 2 years. It was a very good car for 90% of the time but it didn't quite have the character to really get under my skin and a lot of that was to do with the engine, hugely competent and delivering the kind of performance to beat previous gen M3's, I can fully understand why it won multiple engine awards and yet for me it didn't quite have the character to make it special. The E9x M3 N\A V8 on the other hand was a masterpiece for me so there was clear daylight between that and the 335i as the engine made the M car special.
Now the 3 litre twin turbo is everywhere in various states of tune and no matter how they dress it up, it's just not special enough to go in an M car IMO. I've driven the new M4 extensively and it feels like my old car with a remap, hugely quick and competent but not special in that final 2/10th where I really want it to show me it's magic. It's not that I hate turbocharged cars either, two of the best cars I've owned have been heavily turbocharged, I just don't like modern turbo engines. The modern design ethos and the rules they have to abide by rob them of character IMO. It seems some people are all about the numbers or making cars effortless to drive quickly and for those people the M4 and it's derivatives will be spot on, other people want\expect something else which the new car fails to deliver. I used to be massive BMW fanboy but lately for me they've lost their way a bit.
Now the 3 litre twin turbo is everywhere in various states of tune and no matter how they dress it up, it's just not special enough to go in an M car IMO. I've driven the new M4 extensively and it feels like my old car with a remap, hugely quick and competent but not special in that final 2/10th where I really want it to show me it's magic. It's not that I hate turbocharged cars either, two of the best cars I've owned have been heavily turbocharged, I just don't like modern turbo engines. The modern design ethos and the rules they have to abide by rob them of character IMO. It seems some people are all about the numbers or making cars effortless to drive quickly and for those people the M4 and it's derivatives will be spot on, other people want\expect something else which the new car fails to deliver. I used to be massive BMW fanboy but lately for me they've lost their way a bit.
Guvernator said:
As stated some people will absolutely lap this up, others won't depending on where their personal preferences lie. I owned a modern performance BMW in the shape of a 335i for 2 years. It was a very good car for 90% of the time but it didn't quite have the character to really get under my skin and a lot of that was to do with the engine, hugely competent and delivering the kind of performance to beat previous gen M3's, I can fully understand why it won multiple engine awards and yet for me it didn't quite have the character to make it special. The E9x M3 N\A V8 on the other hand was a masterpiece for me so there was clear daylight between that and the 335i as the engine made the M car special.
Now the 3 litre twin turbo is everywhere in various states of tune and no matter how they dress it up, it's just not special enough to go in an M car IMO. I've driven the new M4 extensively and it feels like my old car with a remap, hugely quick and competent but not special in that final 2/10th where I really want it to show me it's magic. It's not that I hate turbocharged cars either, two of the best cars I've owned have been heavily turbocharged, I just don't like modern turbo engines. The modern design ethos and the rules they have to abide by rob them of character IMO. It seems some people are all about the numbers or making cars effortless to drive quickly and for those people the M4 and it's derivatives will be spot on, other people want\expect something else which the new car fails to deliver. I used to be massive BMW fanboy but lately for me they've lost their way a bit.
There's plenty of character in the M3/4 engine. Its biggest issue is that it starts making peak power at 5500rpm and is then flat-lined for another 2100 rpm. There's also a little too much torque in the low end and mid range. If they flattened out the low end torque and made the engine feel a little more peaky at the top end it would go someway to improving the experience, but would also make it a little slower, which they can't afford to given the competition's using 8 cylinders. All a result of smaller displacement and turbos that reduce airflow at very high rpms.Now the 3 litre twin turbo is everywhere in various states of tune and no matter how they dress it up, it's just not special enough to go in an M car IMO. I've driven the new M4 extensively and it feels like my old car with a remap, hugely quick and competent but not special in that final 2/10th where I really want it to show me it's magic. It's not that I hate turbocharged cars either, two of the best cars I've owned have been heavily turbocharged, I just don't like modern turbo engines. The modern design ethos and the rules they have to abide by rob them of character IMO. It seems some people are all about the numbers or making cars effortless to drive quickly and for those people the M4 and it's derivatives will be spot on, other people want\expect something else which the new car fails to deliver. I used to be massive BMW fanboy but lately for me they've lost their way a bit.
Edited by 981C on Friday 9th October 16:44
I saw a BMW M4 today near Buxton. In white it looked stunning.
I was in the 'vette and we had a little 'fun' across the tops to Castleton and that thing is faaaaast! Yes the Chevvy kept up with ease but for a car with 3 litres and has such a well-mannered engine, i am impressed by the sheer go they have.
It also sounded fine when he booted it.
Forget the GTS, get a used stocker and buy something else with the change!
I was in the 'vette and we had a little 'fun' across the tops to Castleton and that thing is faaaaast! Yes the Chevvy kept up with ease but for a car with 3 litres and has such a well-mannered engine, i am impressed by the sheer go they have.
It also sounded fine when he booted it.
Forget the GTS, get a used stocker and buy something else with the change!
anonymous said:
[redacted]
You said heavily turbo'd engine my point still is that it isn't heavily turbo'd as I said I had an cossie pushing out more power with just two litres Mitsubishi produced FQ400 from just two litres now that engine was heavily turbo'd.I'm happy to agree to disagree
Nothing wrong with a Mito, (or a Rolex or a Patek for that matter). No idea where you see a swipe. I don't see one but apologies if I have hurt your feelings Cmoose, or the fellow members'. I will happily remove my post if it's that offensive to the easily offended. Let me know. Nick.
RoverP6B said:
The M3/4 engine sounds like a diesel because it's heavily turbocharged. If they took the turbos off and whacked up the compression ratio it'd sound a lot better.
At what point in the statement (which I was answering) above did the post refer to a production & warrantied engine? A tuned engine has relevance in my first post I referred to a modified engine when talking about the size of the turbos, now you've decided to add it has to be warrantied & a production engine, by the way if you use a decent tuner they will warranty their work.Edited by ZX10R NIN on Sunday 11th October 20:16
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