RE: TVR's return - new details
Discussion
R400TVR said:
I've been reading this thread with a heavy heart. It seems to be full of people forgetting what buying a TVR once meant. My Chimaera was bought as an antidote to the modern soulless cars available. TVR's were never the best engineered, the best built, the fastest, the best handling, and in many ways were plain crap. But every time I opened the door and looked at the wooden dashboard, the leather stitched by a human and the switchgear made by a man at a machine, I knew I'd done right. It doesn't matter if the new one weighs so many kilos, is powered by a donkey or is slower around a circuit, as long as it makes people happy to be in it. So, my appeal to real car fans is this - don't see it as a competitor to a mass produced box. See it as something different. Enjoy it for what it is. And be thankful that the will to make something different is still strong in Britain.
New TVR better hope that you've got deep pockets then cause nobody else will be buying them if they listen to this.jamieduff1981 said:
People who identify with TVR don't want a GT3 RS busting chassis. The things that make a GT3 RS very capable on a race track make a sports car very dull on a road. People who like TVRs like a lot of power, a lot of noise and a bit of a handful handling-wise.
Rubbish, anyone who is spending 80/100k on a new Tvr will want more than just a point and squirt muscle car,Unfortunately MOST not all owners of older Tvrs Cerbs/Chims etc are not going to be in the market for this new Tvr, Tvr are going to have to try and sell this new car to potential 458/Gt3/ Mp4 buyers who will want a lot more than a noisy car with lots of power that goes fast in a straight line.
Also you must have never driven a Gt3 RS.
R400TVR said:
I've been reading this thread with a heavy heart. It seems to be full of people forgetting what buying a TVR once meant. My Chimaera was bought as an antidote to the modern soulless cars available. TVR's were never the best engineered, the best built, the fastest, the best handling, and in many ways were plain crap. But every time I opened the door and looked at the wooden dashboard, the leather stitched by a human and the switchgear made by a man at a machine, I knew I'd done right. It doesn't matter if the new one weighs so many kilos, is powered by a donkey or is slower around a circuit, as long as it makes people happy to be in it. So, my appeal to real car fans is this - don't see it as a competitor to a mass produced box. See it as something different. Enjoy it for what it is. And be thankful that the will to make something different is still strong in Britain.
Indeed. I get in my old 2.9 S which was peanuts to buy and after two years of driving it constantly, the noise, the feel, the look, and the reaction it gets from people never fails to make me happy.
Whatever they make, above all it has to be a TVR. Making a fast sportscar isn't enough, it has to be more than that.
jamieduff1981 said:
As for switchable ABS/TC - maybe I'm a bit inconsistent, but I enjoy a car that doesn't have it but feel somewhat irresponsible/reckless switching it off on cars which have it because any excursions from trundling along are contrived by virtue of you consciously pressing a button to make a safe car less safe. That's an argument I know I'll lose because most people want the safety net present but if it were me it would remain on and I'd find the car dull.
I agree and on my Z4M/M3 I always switched it off but then I thought if I got it wrong I would feel like a complete muppet whereas in my Cerb because it didn't have it somehow I was happier about it and knew the car was designed as a drivers car to start with.Whereas I felt the Z4M/M3 were designed to nanny the driver because if they weren't they wouldn't have had them on in the first place, to be fair I do think ABS is a good idea though because I used to lock up the front wheels a fair bit on the Cerbera.
I felt pretty sad when I read that the new TVR`s were going to have TC because straight away it puts them in the same bracket as Porsches and the like and a TVR should be about a raw driving experience I reckon but appreciate times have changed.
Max_Torque said:
Jeez, seriously? What is this hyperbole?
"The Market" if it needs a TVR would have a TVR. Oh, wait, they went broke. That pretty much shows that "The Market" didn't need or if fact, even want a TVR.
Now, are there a small number of people willing to spend lets say £75k on a car with the sole intention of being "different" from the mass market needs. Yes, yes there is. But the key word, the really important key word is "small". Normally, to make a long term (ish) go of this ultra low volume "Unique-above-all-else" segment you will need you finished product to be well above £100K (think Nobel, Eagle E, Singers etc) to fund the overhead at these low volumes.
So if "The Market" really needed an (old school) TVR, pretty much anyone could knock something together in their shed, que the Elgar, and with a suitable flourish of Pomp And Circumstance, blaze off into glory leaving just an un-necessarily loud exhaust echo in their wake...........
It was then attempt at building their own engine which bankrupted them, not the car itself"The Market" if it needs a TVR would have a TVR. Oh, wait, they went broke. That pretty much shows that "The Market" didn't need or if fact, even want a TVR.
Now, are there a small number of people willing to spend lets say £75k on a car with the sole intention of being "different" from the mass market needs. Yes, yes there is. But the key word, the really important key word is "small". Normally, to make a long term (ish) go of this ultra low volume "Unique-above-all-else" segment you will need you finished product to be well above £100K (think Nobel, Eagle E, Singers etc) to fund the overhead at these low volumes.
So if "The Market" really needed an (old school) TVR, pretty much anyone could knock something together in their shed, que the Elgar, and with a suitable flourish of Pomp And Circumstance, blaze off into glory leaving just an un-necessarily loud exhaust echo in their wake...........
Edited by Max_Torque on Saturday 10th October 11:27
Ozzie Osmond said:
DJRC said:
It's very very difficult to flog a car above £70k.
Which misses the point completely - namely how the hell are they going to build a low volume sportscar and sell it as cheap as £70k?So many people on here don't have the first clue about business - let alone the car business.
That's my bone fides as it were. As to how you do it - I still have a couple of business plans from the last time around somewhere. It all depends on what you want to achieve with the business and I have no insight on their plans except that I know they appear to be a lot more ambitious/sophisticated than mine were. I have no ill will towards this incarnation of TVR at all and I hope they will be a resounding success - like Donkey I've sunk substantial amounts of cash and emotional investment into the glorious bunch of nutters in my life. Long live TVR!
If the plan is to make a road going version of a race car rather than the other way round, then isn't the car itself more likely to be a competitor to the Ginetta G55 GT3 but with a slightly sanitised road legal version? This could work surely, however it requires going further than Ginetta in one big jump so no mean task. Rather that than trying to out do Porsche or Lotus which seems to be a topic of obsession on PH recently.
Lotus E300S said:
Unfortunately MOST not all owners of older Tvrs Cerbs/Chims etc are not going to be in the market for this new Tvr, Tvr are going to have to try and sell this new car to potential 458/Gt3/ Mp4 buyers who will want a lot more than a noisy car with lots of power that goes fast in a straight line.
I'm in the market for one. I have a 12 year old Cerb. I also have a F430. I'd bin the 430 before the Cerb actually.
TVR's allow you to giggle at 30-60mph in a way a 911, RS or not, can't. And I love Porsche's.
I really don't see how you think potential 458/Gt3/12c owners are the target market. Price points are wildly different for one.
My brother, for example, is looking at 458's and 12c's - he wouldn't dream of a TVR.
TVR is still very niche and the new one will maintain this status quo
PGNCerbera said:
I'm in the market for one.
Have you looked at the AC 378 GT Zagato?I think it's great looking car both in the flesh and on paper and about as close to a "traditional TVR" as you can get. But nobody seems to be buying them,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDTJn9JEIf4
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_378_GT_Zagato
When I was looking seriously at the car a few years ago it was intended to go on sale in UK for around £70k as the Perana Z-one but I think the build costs escalated out of control - and they were supposed to be built in Port Elizabeth, South Africa, where labour costs are presumably not too aggressive.
Ozzie Osmond said:
Have you looked at the AC 378 GT Zagato?
But nobody seems to be buying them,
Because it looks mock-Italian exotic and if one were inclined that way, there's enough Maseratis and Ferrari GTs on the seocnd hand market to whet ones appetite.But nobody seems to be buying them,
The weird thing is that on one end everyone is harping on about how the world progressed in the past decade, and still every single low volume sports car launched or mooted since TVR's demise looks at least a generation behind the Tuscan or Sagaris.
skyrover said:
On the contrary... there are too many sanitised, boring options available.
The market is crying out for something a bit mental.
You can't do mass market appeal better than the big brands, so go for something different
Agreed. It's a niche though.The market is crying out for something a bit mental.
You can't do mass market appeal better than the big brands, so go for something different
Which car to your eye would be todays TVR?
Ozzie Osmond said:
IMO the biggest problem new TVR faces is cars which potential customers have to walk away from to reach the TVR showroom,
Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, AMG GT - or if it's "cheap", add Jaguar, Corvette and Porsche to the list. All of these are fully engineered modern cars.
Perhaps they'll steal half of Noble's sales.
Morgan sell over 1000 cars a year. While that includes international sales and they've been building cars for a long time at least it is a statistic that highlights that not everyone wishes to own a plastic button smothered tFerrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, AMG GT - or if it's "cheap", add Jaguar, Corvette and Porsche to the list. All of these are fully engineered modern cars.
Perhaps they'll steal half of Noble's sales.
t cabinet. DonkeyApple said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
IMO the biggest problem new TVR faces is cars which potential customers have to walk away from to reach the TVR showroom,
Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, AMG GT - or if it's "cheap", add Jaguar, Corvette and Porsche to the list. All of these are fully engineered modern cars.
Perhaps they'll steal half of Noble's sales.
Morgan sell over 1000 cars a year. While that includes international sales and they've been building cars for a long time at least it is a statistic that highlights that not everyone wishes to own a plastic button smothered tFerrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, AMG GT - or if it's "cheap", add Jaguar, Corvette and Porsche to the list. All of these are fully engineered modern cars.
Perhaps they'll steal half of Noble's sales.
t cabinet. DonkeyApple said:
Morgan sell over 1000 cars a year.
Morgan's customer base is ageing almost as rapidly as their designs. Even the cross-eyed Aero 8 seems only to be bought by the same group of customers - simply the old folks with a bit more cash moving up from their Plus 8. Morgan and Caterham only get away with it because the cars have been around more or less unchanged for 50 years, enabling them to avoid almost all R&D expenditure. I don't think there's any sign the market wants a shiny new product from this type of manufacturer, as Caterham 21, Morgan Aero and Ginetta G60 have found out.I think the Noble 600 is more similar in conception to what TVR are trying to achieve with their new car. Which in the case of Noble has meant vastly expensive and hardly any sales.
Hopefully "new TVR" will be a great success. The question remains who is going to buy the cars and how much cash they will have to put on the table to get one. Since TVRs heyday in the 1990s the world has moved on and is now dominated by excellent sportscars which have the massive cost-efficiency of mass production. The ongoing struggle at Lotus shows just how tough the business can be.
It's always easy to find an excuse NOT to buy a sportscar, as the AC 378 has demonstrated.
Ozzie Osmond said:
Hopefully "new TVR" will be a great success. The question remains who is going to buy the cars and how much cash they will have to put on the table to get one.
You Porsche guys can never imagine that anyone would think differently to you. 1,000 cars per annum would be about 1/200 of Porsche's sales. I can imagine that 1/200 of those people might choose the TVR. Of course that's just Porsche so the actual percentage would be much lower. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff