RE: TVR's return - new details

[900T-R]

The AJP8 delivers max power @ 6,500 rpm. The Speed Six somewhere between 6,800 and 7,200 depending on spec. In comparison, I wouldn't a priori call the Coyote power delivery 'lazy'...

[cerb4.5lee]

Guvernator said:

however I was commenting on the fact they they often don't like to rev, 7krpm isn't high in my book especially considering the previous AJP and straight sixes did most of their best work near the 8k redline which was part of their character and appeal for me.

My Cerbera redlined at 7500rpm but because it had a decent amount of torque and relatively not much weight it felt fast at pretty much any revs but agree it did go mental at high revs(the noise too).

I am pleased its not a too high revving engine because my V8 M3 revved to 8400rpm but it was a sack of turd below 6000rpm and it made for a pretty crap road car so I am looking forward to the new engine delivering decent power/torque mated to a low weight so I think it will do the job nicely.

[HD Adam]

Ah yes but even though it revs to over 8000rpm it's American see?

Yes, it's a twin overhead cam with variable valve timing, they still put pushrods in it. Probably.

Therefore it really only revs to 2000rpm, has a 2 barrel carb and does 3 mpg.

And it's heavy. Just a boat anchor really. With leaf springs.

[/TopGearFans]

[unsprung]

HD Adam said:

Ah yes but even though it revs to over 8000rpm it's American see?

Yes, it's a twin overhead cam with variable valve timing, they still put pushrods in it. Probably.

Therefore it really only revs to 2000rpm, has a 2 barrel carb and does 3 mpg.

And it's heavy. Just a boat anchor really. With leaf springs.

[/TopGearFans]

[jgtv]

Fictional race times aside I really really hope this does well.

Personally I think it would probably do better fighting it out with low end 911's, Caymans, Evoras and cars in that bracket than trying to give it 500+ bhp and trying to make it a lambo eater, because realistically unless this is well under 100K they are going to struggle to shift many to anyone outside of this forum.

I love a mental TVR but there is a reason you don't see one every day and yet you see countless boxters, SLK's, Z4s etc and that's not because of any racing pedigree.

[Guvernator]

lee_erm said:

The Coyote in the Mustang GT350 revs to 8500rpm. Not all that far behind the a 458! That's a factory car too.

That's definitely better but I'm sure I read that the engine in the GT350 has had substantial mods done to achieve that. Much as I like what they've done with the engine for the standard Mustang, I just don't think a low rpm torque monster is what TVR are all about, let's hope some Cosworth tinkering can add in some top end fireworks to the standard unit.

[dinkel]

900T-R said:

The AJP8 delivers max power @ 6,500 rpm. The Speed Six somewhere between 6,800 and 7,200 depending on spec. In comparison, I wouldn't a priori call the Coyote power delivery 'lazy'...

Ken Block proved its ability albeit with some FI.

I don't believe The Hype unless Chris Harris had his spin at Donny and treats us with a short impressive clip.

[Cacatous]

iwantcheese5 said:

I've always thought that TVR interiors were mildly horrendous to look at... The later ones had a lot of strange blobby lumps and holes like some kind of failed life form.

It's great to see them having a focus on racing from day one, it gives the car far more credibility, and anyway race cars are cool. More variety in the GT classes is always good.

Tuscan Mk I and Cerbera were the two best interiors I've ever seen. I owned them both

[SturdyHSV]

Guvernator said:

lee_erm said:

The Coyote in the Mustang GT350 revs to 8500rpm. Not all that far behind the a 458! That's a factory car too.

That's definitely better but I'm sure I read that the engine in the GT350 has had substantial mods done to achieve that. Much as I like what they've done with the engine for the standard Mustang, I just don't think a low rpm torque monster is what TVR are all about, let's hope some Cosworth tinkering can add in some top end fireworks to the standard unit.

Lots of TVR owners seemed to like Rover V8s? I don't remember those being exactly VTEC-esque?

[NickGibbs]

900T-R said:

NickGibbs said:

If it is going to be sub-1100kg it'll be bare bones in the cabin. That's probably for the better because it'll be INCREDIBLY hard to match tactile quality of group parts-sharing, relatively mass-market players like Porsche or Maserati.

Eh? So you'd swap leather (or faux-leather)-clad and stitched surfaces and bespoke alloy switchgear etc. for plastic mouldings and silver paint? One thing TVR had going for it compared to anything near their price range was interiors, they were focused but never 'bare bones' and for it they were still 250-400 kg lighter than their direct competition. Contemporary Boxsters looked and felt like bargain basement far eastern offerings inside, in comparison.

I think given where current composite, alloy and fastener technology is and how far costs have come down over the past 15 years or so, the current weight of 'sports cars' is nothing less than a tragedy and the result of lazy, marketing-led engineering rather than a necessity. I am quite sure Gordon Murray is thinking along similar lines.

If they were still battling 90s Porsches, then all well and good. But the current crop are exquisite inside. TVRs won't be unless it spends so much they become out of reach to their target market. What I mean by bare bones is for example exposing the tub (if that's how they're making it) so the structure becomes part of the interior look and then putting all switchgear onto a screen. It can work work well, but it won't be luxurious that people spending over £50,000 on car will expect. Maybe not the PH hardcore, but foreign buyers that TVR will need to make it viable

[Guvernator]

cerb4.5lee said:

My Cerbera redlined at 7500rpm but because it had a decent amount of torque and relatively not much weight it felt fast at pretty much any revs but agree it did go mental at high revs(the noise too).

I am pleased its not a too high revving engine because my V8 M3 revved to 8400rpm but it was a sack of turd below 6000rpm and it made for a pretty crap road car so I am looking forward to the new engine delivering decent power/torque mated to a low weight so I think it will do the job nicely.

See I never get this criticism of the old M3, I like a performance car to make me work a bit for my highs and the noise at the top IS a reward in itself. For a screaming V8, it's also got a more than ample spread of low end torque, all IMO of course. I infinitely prefer the old N\A V8 to the rather anodyne unit in the new one but I guess it's all horses for courses.

Maybe Cosworth will be able to coax the holly grail of low end torque and top end fizz out of this engine, judging by the stats on the GT350, it certainly looks like it has the potential in which case it will be VERY exciting indeed.

[_Neal_]

Guvernator said:

That's definitely better but I'm sure I read that the engine in the GT350 has had substantial mods done to achieve that. Much as I like what they've done with the engine for the standard Mustang, I just don't think a low rpm torque monster is what TVR are all about, let's hope some Cosworth tinkering can add in some top end fireworks to the standard unit.

The Coyote doesn't seem to be a low-rpm torque monster anyway (see stats referenced in posts above) - I'm sure it'll sound superb and be worth revving too. Seems like a really good engine choice to me. I loved the power delivery in both my Chimaera 400 and Cerbera 4.5, and they were very different.

With regards to the interiors I'm not sure TVRs have ever been stripped back - the feel should, in my view at least, be "bespoke" - the Cerbera especially was a great place to sit - lovely leather, solid metal switchgear, swoopy, mad and special. More of that please, new TVR!

[_Neal_]

Guvernator said:

See I never get this criticism of the old M3, I like a performance car to make me work a bit for my highs and the noise at the top IS a reward in itself.

Fair enough, but this is about TVRs, which have never really been like that. Cerbera top end was great, but it still had tons of torque.

[Guvernator]

_Neal_ said:

Fair enough, but this is about TVRs, which have never really been like that. Cerbera top end was great, but it still had tons of torque.

So we are agreed that a TVR needs BOTH, which with a bit of tinkering, the Coyote should be able to deliver. Good I'm glad we got that sorted

[otolith]

Ah, I see TVR are to receive the curse of Lotus, which is everybody saying that unless you build essentially a cut price Porsche, nobody will buy it ever. Or, at least, you won't be able to sell massive volumes of mass produced sports cars, which means you have basically failed.

[oldtimer2]

so called said:

Good luck to them.

I second that!

[Guvernator]

otolith said:

Ah, I see TVR are to receive the curse of Lotus, which is everybody saying that unless you build essentially a cut price Porsche, nobody will buy it ever. Or, at least, you won't be able to sell massive volumes of mass produced sports cars, which means you have basically failed.

Harsh but probably more than a hint of truth to that statement. Like it or not, Porsche are the one's to beat if you want your sports car to be taken seriously, or at least that's what all the journalists seem to think and like it or not, they sway public opinion massively.

I do disagree that everyone should be chasing volume sales, we really could do with more niche products but unfortunately what we want as idealistic PH'ers tends to largely ignore the rather brutal truth of modern economics which is that you need to sell in large numbers to make a decent return on your investment.

[otolith]

I think if TVR is set up with realistic production volumes in mind, and given that it is using iStream which is supposed to keep production costs down, it could be able to make money producing niche vehicles. Lotus struggles to do the same thing because its cost base is too high (although recent rationalisation has apparently improved that situation). I think directly competing for the mass market is a hiding to nothing for the same reason that Lotus can't do it - you've got to play to your strengths, not to Porsche's. Do things that the volume players can't do because they have to please all of the people all of the time.

[soad]

oldtimer2 said:

so called said:

Good luck to them.

I second that!

I third that.

[J4CKO]

A 500 bhp engine seems to move anything adequately, I don't think if its 1300 kilos its the end of the world, it isnt like we want to bench press it, it will still be a fairly light car, with 500 bhp it needs to be suitably strong using mostly conventional, non exotic materials to make the price point.

I reckon if they manage to produce it with 500 bhp and 1300 ish kilos and you take it for a spin most of us will come back a gibbering wreck, a normal Mustang GT shifts and that weights like 1650 kilos, add another 80 or so Horsepower and remove one moderately sized horses worth of weight.

I need to see a picture, the rest I am certain will be fantastic like TVR's of old but with the, hopefully the problems sorted.