RE: TVR's return - new details
Discussion
Guvernator said:
One thing that's just occurred to me, isn't the Coyote engine a more traditional "lazy" American engine and therefore doesn't like to rev and does most of it's useful work lower in the rev range. Unless Cosworth can add a bit of zing to the top end, I'm not sure that kind of engine will suit the character of TVR.
No the ls v8's are the lazy ones. The coyote is very responsive and can rev to 7500rpm. 5ohmustang said:
No the ls v8's are the lazy ones. The coyote is very responsive and can rev to 7500rpm.
As an owner of a 2015 Coyote V8 5.0, I can honestly say that why would I want to run it like a screaming cat..Hitting my Iimiter at 6500 is more than enough.
Advancing quickly on UK roads or tracks for that matter, when would you use the extra rpm I would ask..?
Light n Hairy said:
It is astonishing how unbridled the armchair business magnates on ph have become, judging by the plain confidence with which bullet-pointed blueprints for TVR's options have been thrust forward on this thread. If only the rest of the world shared ph expertise on how much a car ought to weigh, rev to, be developed and be compared to. All with the benefit of such hard data charting the demise of any small manufacturing firm.
Did I look at Boxsters or 911s or TTs or Elise's when I got my first and subsequent TVRs? Sure. I hated them. There was simply nothing that came within a mile of the noise, occasion, and fabulously designed delight of the 90s and naughties TVRs. I remember well when I wanted to know more about the engine issues. I rang the company and someone at reception put me through directly to the factory floor, when some engineer type bloke told me what he thought the issues were amidst the clear background din of machinery and compressed air pumps.
And I loved, perversely, how there was indeed a ritualised mixture of euphoria and worry when driving it about. Whilst it totally overwhelmed me with the sensations of raw joy that transmitted with every exhaust pop, every damped road bump, which blip of the throttle would push it's lightspeed response too far? When would I hear a clunk of something deep inside the engine literally imploding?
It is disappointing that 5 pages in, nobody seems to be aware of what it properly felt like to be in a car that was made with such a different, heroic, unlikely and defiant type of philosophy that led to those glorious things being made, all in a large shed, and holding the world to ransom.
Undoubtedly, I must be in a minority. Along with the others of us who had and loved those cars.
Undoubtedly, I laughed the hearty laugh of oblivion when people who never had one volunteered their rationale for how the BoxsteraudiRSTX-5 was the proper way to go. I didn't care for any doubts that such a fragile and audacious an outfit would make money for year to year. Some great and exceptional things only succeed for limited periods- OMG who knew eh? I cared only for how ruthlessly proud the company was about going fast and looking fantastic whilst doing so. Even if I rode home on an AA truck, expecting a fat bill, I forgave the car because I just 'got' what they did. About the rest, your stats, your 5-point success plans, I and I daresay the majority of other TVR owners, never gave and never will give, a flying f**k.
Couldn't put it better myself. Bravo that man. Did I look at Boxsters or 911s or TTs or Elise's when I got my first and subsequent TVRs? Sure. I hated them. There was simply nothing that came within a mile of the noise, occasion, and fabulously designed delight of the 90s and naughties TVRs. I remember well when I wanted to know more about the engine issues. I rang the company and someone at reception put me through directly to the factory floor, when some engineer type bloke told me what he thought the issues were amidst the clear background din of machinery and compressed air pumps.
And I loved, perversely, how there was indeed a ritualised mixture of euphoria and worry when driving it about. Whilst it totally overwhelmed me with the sensations of raw joy that transmitted with every exhaust pop, every damped road bump, which blip of the throttle would push it's lightspeed response too far? When would I hear a clunk of something deep inside the engine literally imploding?
It is disappointing that 5 pages in, nobody seems to be aware of what it properly felt like to be in a car that was made with such a different, heroic, unlikely and defiant type of philosophy that led to those glorious things being made, all in a large shed, and holding the world to ransom.
Undoubtedly, I must be in a minority. Along with the others of us who had and loved those cars.
Undoubtedly, I laughed the hearty laugh of oblivion when people who never had one volunteered their rationale for how the BoxsteraudiRSTX-5 was the proper way to go. I didn't care for any doubts that such a fragile and audacious an outfit would make money for year to year. Some great and exceptional things only succeed for limited periods- OMG who knew eh? I cared only for how ruthlessly proud the company was about going fast and looking fantastic whilst doing so. Even if I rode home on an AA truck, expecting a fat bill, I forgave the car because I just 'got' what they did. About the rest, your stats, your 5-point success plans, I and I daresay the majority of other TVR owners, never gave and never will give, a flying f**k.
Edited by Light n Hairy on Thursday 8th October 00:05
5ohmustang said:
Guvernator said:
One thing that's just occurred to me, isn't the Coyote engine a more traditional "lazy" American engine and therefore doesn't like to rev and does most of it's useful work lower in the rev range. Unless Cosworth can add a bit of zing to the top end, I'm not sure that kind of engine will suit the character of TVR.
No the ls v8's are the lazy ones. The coyote is very responsive and can rev to 7500rpm. Your vintage carb fed rover V8 which propelled TVR's of old could be described as "lazy"
Modern American V8's? not at all. Certainly better than your turbocharged Bavarian nonsense.
And what's wrong with plenty of low end shove yet still pulling hard to the redline? Yes you can have your cake and eat it.
Max_Torque said:
This is a car that the new TVR should be looking very very closely at indeed, imo:
Not that again... 
As it seems major automotive industry apologists like a good bullet point list, here's a quick rundown of the key differences between a Corvette - which is a great car in its own right - and a TVR:
- A Corvette is sized for Americans on American roads. A TVR is sized for UK/Europe and English country roads
- A Corvette is developed with an obsession for competitiveness, lap times and sticking it to the Youropeeans. More grip is better, more power is better. A TVR is merely developed for giving the driver a good time and its environment a bit of theatre.
- Crucially, there's an immediacy and intimacy about the TVR experience that eludes Corvettes as well as any other non-track biased sports car you care to name. To me, that's the whole point of owning a sports car.
- A Corvette needs to have all the big luxury GT niceties, a TVR doesn't.
- However, a Corvette is slick in a very mass produced way and doesn't make any pretense to artistry and bespokeness in its design and interior. A TVR does.
- As a result, a TVR might be OTT but is never vulgar. A 'Vette arguably crosses that line.
- The Corvette is funded and built by one of the most cynical corporations in the automotive world in the US of A which should have gotten the way of ther dodo if it were'n for government intervention giving them and their overbloated fat cat management structure the billions that us consumers wouldn't spend on their lacklustre products. A TVR, erm, isn't.
Edited by 900T-R on Thursday 8th October 07:55
Edited by 900T-R on Thursday 8th October 08:03
900T-R said:
Max_Torque said:
This is a car that the new TVR should be looking very very closely at indeed, imo:
Not that again... As it seems major automotive industry apologists like a good bullet point list, here's a quick rundown of the key differences between a Corvette - which is a great car in its own right - and a TVR:
- A Corvette is sized for Americans on American roads. A TVR is sized for UK/Europe and English country roads
- A Corvette is developed with an obsession for competitiveness, lap times and sticking it to the Youropeeans. More grip is better, more power is better. A TVR is merely developed for giving the driver a good time and its environment a bit of theatre.
- Crucially, there's an immediacy and intimacy about the TVR experience that eludes Corvettes as well as any other non-track biased sports car you care to name. To me, that's the whole point of owning a sports car.
- A Corvette needs to have all the big luxury GT niceties, a TVR doesn't.
- However, a Corvette is slick in a very mass produced way and doesn't make any pretense to artistry and bespokeness in its design and interior. A TVR does.
- As a result, a TVR might be OTT but is never vulgar. A 'Vette arguably crosses that line.
- The Corvette is funded and built by one of the most cynical corporations in the automotive world in the US of A which should have gotten the way of ther dodo if it were'n for government intervention giving them and their overbloated fat cat management structure the billions that us consumers wouldn't spend on their lacklustre products. A TVR, erm, isn't.
The Z06 is the car TVR need to look out to work out how to make a decent sports car for a small amount of money, that is all. It has imo, good styling, massive performance, is a basically "simple" car underneath but uses those basic parts to good effect.
No, of course TVR shouldn't just take a Z06 and slap a TVR badge on the nose, and of course, without GM's platform sharing resources they can't do that. But they ARE taking a Ford power Products powertrain and putting it in a new body, and that's pretty much what the 'vette is.
And people suggesting that All TVR need to do is remake one of their classic designs, are you for real? They would sell a few (about 6, to the beardy people on this forum who moan on and on about how "everything was much better in the good old days", but then they would go broke again.
If you want a "classic" TVR, go and buy one, plenty to choose from, and then you can sit happily in your broken down car on the side of the road in the pissing rain waiting for the recovery truck whilst the rest of us get one with our lives........ ;-)
Max_Torque said:
And people suggesting that All TVR need to do is remake one of their classic designs, are you for real? They would sell a few (about 6, to the beardy people on this forum who moan on and on about how "everything was much better in the good old days", but then they would go broke again.
If you want a "classic" TVR, go and buy one, plenty to choose from, and then you can sit happily in your broken down car on the side of the road in the pissing rain waiting for the recovery truck whilst the rest of us get one with our lives........ ;-)
Sorry but have to agree with this, TVR beards by all means reminisce away and the new classic parts business that they've brought online should ensure that you can hopefully do this for many more years to come but please if you want TVR to succeed, do not expect\insist that this TVR is like those of old.If you want a "classic" TVR, go and buy one, plenty to choose from, and then you can sit happily in your broken down car on the side of the road in the pissing rain waiting for the recovery truck whilst the rest of us get one with our lives........ ;-)
A car with poor reliability, poor quality control, built in a shed with the engineer who built your car on speed-dial if\when it breaks down might sound very romantic to some but it just won't cut it in today's world I'm afraid. Yes they need to pay some homage to the spirit of TVR and I am hoping they can keep at least some of what made TVR special BUT they also HAVE to look forward if they want this venture to succeed.
So are those who put a deposit down any wiser on price? The last I read was an autocar article a few months ago which seemed to be suggesting a 2 model line up with price varying from £50k-80k depending on spec but it all seems to have gone quiet since then.
If they can produce something interesting and of decent quality beginning with a 5, I'll be VERY impressed.
If they can produce something interesting and of decent quality beginning with a 5, I'll be VERY impressed.
Max_Torque said:
At what point did i suggest the new TVR should be a Corvette?
The Z06 is the car TVR need to look out to work out how to make a decent sports car for a small amount of money, that is all. It has imo, good styling, massive performance, is a basically "simple" car underneath but uses those basic parts to good effect.
The difference is that Corvette can draw from a huge corporate parts and human resources bin and probably is a prestige object for GM rather than having to pay for itself (which I am sure it does on paper, after all they have proven to be rather resourceful in creative bookkeeping when it comes to their European subsidiaries The Z06 is the car TVR need to look out to work out how to make a decent sports car for a small amount of money, that is all. It has imo, good styling, massive performance, is a basically "simple" car underneath but uses those basic parts to good effect.
). The production methods are completely different, underneath the glassfibre there's something that is more akin to a monocoque with unstressed panels bolted to it (see Rover P6/Citroën DS et al) using pressed steel and pressed/extruded aluminium members rather than simple tubing, i.e. mass market methods that require very expensive tooling. For TVR, the GM iStream method seems to be the missing link to produce something stiffer and safer for its weight than the old tubular backbone chassis, within the realms of low-volume, low-cost (relatively) manufacturing.
Production engineering and attention to detail have been TVR's Achilles Heel and I don't think in those regards anything could be learned/ taken from a mass market equivalent as the methods simply aren't transferrable.
As for the rest, they're both front-mid engined rear wheel drive coupé's using big, naturally aspirated power - what's the magic ingrediënt of the Yank version, then? If anything, TVR has had the correct unequal length double wishbone suspension set up for the past half century...
There are good traits and bad traits of a TVR and I don't think unreliability and poor build quality are essential ingredients which need to be carried over in order to retain TVR'ness.
Light, goes like stink, looks\sounds like nothing else and good bang for buck is what I hope they keep, the rest can gladly be consigned to history as far as I am concerned.
Light, goes like stink, looks\sounds like nothing else and good bang for buck is what I hope they keep, the rest can gladly be consigned to history as far as I am concerned.
Max_Torque said:
The Z06 is the car TVR need to look out to work out how to make a decent sports car for a small amount of money, that is all. It has imo, good styling, massive performance, is a basically "simple" car underneath but uses those basic parts to good effect.
The new Z06 isn't the best example of a car TVR should copy. Repeated tests from the US show it suffers from heatsoak and severe performance degradation when used hard. The recent Motor Trend drivers car of the year test placed it stone last as it couldn't run a 4 mile closed road course or even 1 lap of Laguna Seca without overheating.Lets be honest iStream is nothing special.
It's a load of techinques, that are already used across the mainstream industry to cut costs and improve the performance to cost/weight ratio of existing production cars. All the OEMs already do this, irrespective of if they are making 200 (Caterham tubular spaceframe), 2000 (lotus Extruded tub), 4000 (Aston VH platform) 50,000 (Jaguar pressed riveted steel / ally monocoque) or 500,000 (Toyota welded steel monocoque) cars a year.
if you look at GM's Istream blurb is just a load of wishy washy marketing nonsense with the words "Formula one technology" dropped in every so often.......
For example
If you are a low volume manufacturer then you'll just replace the hydroforming (which requires expensive hard tooling) with a cnc bent part instead.
Anyone who says "modern cars are too heavy because the manufacturers are lazy" is an idiot frankly. Modern cars weigh what they weight because of the huge capability that now resides in them. Be that performance, economy, crash protection, feature content etc etc.
It's a load of techinques, that are already used across the mainstream industry to cut costs and improve the performance to cost/weight ratio of existing production cars. All the OEMs already do this, irrespective of if they are making 200 (Caterham tubular spaceframe), 2000 (lotus Extruded tub), 4000 (Aston VH platform) 50,000 (Jaguar pressed riveted steel / ally monocoque) or 500,000 (Toyota welded steel monocoque) cars a year.
if you look at GM's Istream blurb is just a load of wishy washy marketing nonsense with the words "Formula one technology" dropped in every so often.......
For example
GMdesign said:
"The innovative iFrame is created from a combination of large-diameter, thin-walled steel tubes that are formed, laser cut and profiled under computer control."
er, so what? Laser cut, pressed, hydroformed steel welded and or glued / rivetted assemblies are found in every modern car made in the last 20 years!If you are a low volume manufacturer then you'll just replace the hydroforming (which requires expensive hard tooling) with a cnc bent part instead.
Anyone who says "modern cars are too heavy because the manufacturers are lazy" is an idiot frankly. Modern cars weigh what they weight because of the huge capability that now resides in them. Be that performance, economy, crash protection, feature content etc etc.
I really do wonder if new TVR are on a hiding to nothing.
Let's face it the German competition have got the sportscar technical recipe pretty much bang on (so much so that they've been able to create a family of sportscars in the 911, Boxster and Cayman using the same basic philosophies and techniques albeit in differing quantities depending on market segment).
The one area that TVR can capitalise on is character, none of the competition really have this. However expecting to wean the general public off their CayBoxCarreras by solely relying on a healthy dose of character is not a great idea I don't think.
Balancing objective technical competence (to bring reliability and quality to an acceptable standard) with an intangible attribute (character) is a huge challenge in this day and age.
All the best to them, I'm in the market for a Chimaera at the moment so watching all the goings on with interest!
Let's face it the German competition have got the sportscar technical recipe pretty much bang on (so much so that they've been able to create a family of sportscars in the 911, Boxster and Cayman using the same basic philosophies and techniques albeit in differing quantities depending on market segment).
The one area that TVR can capitalise on is character, none of the competition really have this. However expecting to wean the general public off their CayBoxCarreras by solely relying on a healthy dose of character is not a great idea I don't think.
Balancing objective technical competence (to bring reliability and quality to an acceptable standard) with an intangible attribute (character) is a huge challenge in this day and age.
All the best to them, I'm in the market for a Chimaera at the moment so watching all the goings on with interest!
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