Electric Parking Brakes (again!)

Electric Parking Brakes (again!)

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Discussion

Spangles

1,441 posts

184 months

Monday 12th October 2015
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Vanin said:
Just had a close shave with wife driving SLK with roof down in slow moving stop start traffic. Wasp flew into her hair and being momentarily distracted she did not notice the car had stopped in front. Only doing about 5 mph so I was able to quickly grab the manual handbrake and we came to a halt with only inches to spare.

Apart from thinking what a good thing it was that we did not have and electronic parking brake it did make me wonder about other issues with the electric ones.
Or indeed an older Mercedes with a hand(foot actually)brake you couldn't reach.

Debaser

5,665 posts

260 months

Monday 12th October 2015
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The Wookie said:
Impasse said:
Blaster72 said:
Electronic parking brakes would stop you in an emergency too confused
Don't tell that to the luddites. It would ruin their paranoia and take away a reason for moaning.
I believe I'm right in saying that most of these systems are now linked to the ABS too and provide a rudimentary anti-lock facility too. On at least two vehicles I've tested it feels as if the EPB button actually triggers the ABS system to apply the foundation brakes although I haven't actually tested it properly.

If either is true then hilariously an EPB would actually be safer in the circumstances the OP describes.

Edited by The Wookie on Monday 12th October 12:32
Yep, apply the EPB when moving and it'll apply the foundation brakes.

Tje

194 posts

119 months

Monday 12th October 2015
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I tried it in the golf which has one when driving, at low speed. Just seems to lock the rear wheels up. I'll give it another try seeming as im not resposnsible for the tyres and see what happens.

I dont like it but I have got used to it. Day to day it operates pretty much like the hill assist in the Impreza. Just annoying when you go to back out of a space without a seatbelt on and it wont disengage, have to do it manually then.

Easternlight

3,424 posts

143 months

Monday 12th October 2015
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On my S4 applying the electronic handbrake while you're moving applies all the brakes at full force for an emergency stop. Tried it once at about 20 mph, my god do you stop!

AJB

856 posts

214 months

Monday 12th October 2015
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Vanin said:
Just had a close shave with wife driving SLK with roof down in slow moving stop start traffic. Wasp flew into her hair and being momentarily distracted she did not notice the car had stopped in front. Only doing about 5 mph so I was able to quickly grab the manual handbrake and we came to a halt with only inches to spare.
Whilst I don't particularly like the EPB in my current car,

Vanin said:
Apart from thinking what a good thing it was that we did not have and electronic parking brake it did make me wonder about other issues with the electric ones.
My old W123 Mercedes you would have crashed because the handbrake required pulling a handle out of the dash that was to the right of the driver, so you couldn't have reached it. Plus it was rubbish.

My old E39 5-series you would probably have crashed because the mechanical handbrake was rubbish.

My current car you'd just reach down, hold up the switch in the centre console and it'd do a full emergency stop, and I think I'm right in saying it'd use all 4 brakes and ABS.

Vanin said:
Do learner drivers have to take another test if they pass with an electric parking braked car and wish to move on to conventional?
No. Why would they? It's really not very different. It'd make just as much sense to say they had to pass another test to drive a car with a manual choke, or with no synchromesh on 1st and 2nd.

Vanin said:
Surely at one time there was a law saying that there had to be a direct manual mechanical link with separate shoes/discs so when did that change?
No, not that I know of. And certainly not separate shoes/discs. My old Octavia used the standard rear drums/shoes from the handbrake, my wife's MINI uses the standard rear discs/pads. Most smaller cars with mechanical handbrakes don't have separate shoes or discs.

Vanin said:
Are there problems with flat batteries rendering the car immobile say for pushing it to a place of safety or towing?
Quite possibly. Although it'd have to be very flat (ie not just flat enough not to start), and so it 's unlikely to be in a place of danger requiring pushing to a place of safety. But yes, I can imagine it being annoying, especially once they're classics and wanting pushing out of a garage or whatever.

Vanin said:
Is it possible to have fun with an electric parking brake?
No.


Vanin

Original Poster:

1,010 posts

165 months

Monday 12th October 2015
quotequote all
The Wookie said:
I believe I'm right in saying that most of these systems are now linked to the ABS too and provide a rudimentary anti-lock facility too. On at least two vehicles I've tested it feels as if the EPB button actually triggers the ABS system to apply the foundation brakes although I haven't actually tested it properly.

If either is true then hilariously an EPB would actually be safer in the circumstances the OP describes.

Edited by The Wookie on Monday 12th October 12:32
Firstly I would have to reach over to find the switch, and since I do not know where the switch is I think I would have been in the back of the car in front before finding it.
Secondly, although the handbrake on the car is strong, I would not want to put full braking on instantly, rather a firm progression.

This would be the case also where say the brakes failed on a snow covered downhill section where full force of the handbrake would cause a spin.

I am still not clear about different PHs saying one the one hand the electric parking brake does not operate when the car is moving and on the other hand some saying it applies full ABS. Would that not be dangerous as somebody said when mistaken by the passenger for the electric window switch

Two other questions have not been answered,
1.Do learners need to pass a separate test with electric parkbrakes as they do with autos?

2.What happens when the battery is flat, does the parking brake lock on or off?

blueacid

435 posts

140 months

Monday 12th October 2015
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Vanin said:
2.What happens when the battery is flat, does the parking brake lock on or off?
It probably needs some power to release: you could get this done just with a jump pack. Or, if the battery is not dead but merely too feeble to crank the car there's probably still enough power to release it.

Muzzer79

9,805 posts

186 months

Monday 12th October 2015
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Vanin said:
1.Do learners need to pass a separate test with electric parkbrakes as they do with autos?
I would think not.

In the same way that they don't have a seperate test for cars with reversing cameras as those without, new technology to make things 'easier' does not change the test itself.

Makes something of a mockery of the hill start though.

I don't understand the hate for electronic parking brakes. I've had one for 3.5 years and 60k miles and it's fine. Perfectly intuitive, it's never failed and is a damn sight neater and less hassle than a traditional handbrake.

Can I do handbrake turns now? No, but then frankly the requirement to do those stopped when I was about 18....



GetCarter

29,358 posts

278 months

Monday 12th October 2015
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O/P. Manual or electronic in such circumstance will have the same result.

The Wookie

13,909 posts

227 months

Monday 12th October 2015
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Vanin said:
Firstly I would have to reach over to find the switch, and since I do not know where the switch is I think I would have been in the back of the car in front before finding it.
Secondly, although the handbrake on the car is strong, I would not want to put full braking on instantly, rather a firm progression.

This would be the case also where say the brakes failed on a snow covered downhill section where full force of the handbrake would cause a spin.

I am still not clear about different PHs saying one the one hand the electric parking brake does not operate when the car is moving and on the other hand some saying it applies full ABS. Would that not be dangerous as somebody said when mistaken by the passenger for the electric window switch

Two other questions have not been answered,
1.Do learners need to pass a separate test with electric parkbrakes as they do with autos?

2.What happens when the battery is flat, does the parking brake lock on or off?
They're usually fairly obvious and often centrally located. The ones that aren't you can compare to foot operated park brakes, drivers side handbrakes or even lower dash pull handles. You'd have to reach across the driver to pull the handbrake on my 928 for example as it's tucked in by the sill!

As said, they're linked to the ABS so I believe there's a rudimentary anti-lock system and it wont destabilise the car. Plus I would argue that if you're on a snow covered hill then you're wasting your time with a regular handbrake anyway, you're going to either spin or have an accident anyway unless you're applying the brakes a hell of a long way back from whatever you want to stop for! I'm sure you could create a situation where a manual handbrake might be more desirable, but I'd argue that an incapacitated driver is a fairly likely scenario and giving the passengers the ability to stop the car under control in the shortest distance possible is a pretty desirable feature. Even if it's been activated maliciously or as a joke it's safer than locking up the back wheels at speed.

I'd agree with the risk aspect of accidental full ABS application on the switch, common sense would dictate that you don't design an interior with the handbrake switch near anything you might use regularly but I once rented a new Citroen Picasso that had the switch mounted in the same orientation and about 10cm directly above a cubby box latch. You could easily imagine someone reaching to open the cubby without looking properly and hurling everyone against the windscreen! IMO it should be a big red thing in clear view that can be reach but doesn't naturally fall to hand of any passengers.

They do make a mockery of the hill start test, but the majority of modern cars have a hill-hold function anyway without having an EPB, so where do you draw the line?

krobbo

85 posts

119 months

Monday 12th October 2015
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98elise said:
I hate the things. In the past few years I've driven quite a few cars with them. One in particular was dire. I was parked on a reasonably steep hill, trying to get out of a tight space. The brake was supposed to hold you but it was releasing a fraction too early causing the car to roll back. I then had to jam on the brakes to stop me hitting the car behind. The only way to stop it was to be more aggressive with the clutch, which was difficult when the car in front was quite close.

With a normal handbrake you can release gradually, and when you want to which is far better.
It's woth noting that in all cars I have driven with an EPB, you can hold the button in the 'apply' position, i.e. pulled upwards in most cases to stop it releasing too early. This gives you chance to balance the clutch and gas, then you just release the button and the brake releases.

Has come in handy a few times in exactly the type of situation you have described.

AJB

856 posts

214 months

Monday 12th October 2015
quotequote all
AJB said:
Vanin said:
Do learner drivers have to take another test if they pass with an electric parking braked car and wish to move on to conventional?
No. Why would they? It's really not very different. It'd make just as much sense to say they had to pass another test to drive a car with a manual choke, or with no synchromesh on 1st and 2nd.
Vanin said:
Two other questions have not been answered,
1.Do learners need to pass a separate test with electric parkbrakes as they do with autos?
See above! wink

Vanin said:
Firstly I would have to reach over to find the switch, and since I do not know where the switch is I think I would have been in the back of the car in front before finding it.
But then are you arguing that there should be a standard for mechanical handbrake levers? Presumably handbrakes to the right of the driver and foot-pedal based "hand" brakes would have to be banned, but what rules would there be for the lever in the middle to make sure it was easily identifiable by passengers not familiar with the car?

Don't get me wrong, I would rather have a conventional mechanical one than the EPB in my car, but it's not all that bad... And certainly not as hopeless/dangerous/should-be-banned as a lot of internet posts suggest.

MaxA

238 posts

143 months

Monday 12th October 2015
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I suppose an EPB is only fun if you like doing full emergency stops - I'd still miss my handbrake in winter when it does come in handy from time to time.

Vanin

Original Poster:

1,010 posts

165 months

Monday 12th October 2015
quotequote all
Surely a handbrake hill start is one of the most difficult things to do when you are a learner.
If you pass a test with an electric park brake and then drive a conventional car I would suggest that you are going to have a few roll back shunts which would make you a bit of a liability.

Trif

746 posts

172 months

Monday 12th October 2015
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Easternlight said:
On my S4 applying the electronic handbrake while you're moving applies all the brakes at full force for an emergency stop. Tried it once at about 20 mph, my god do you stop!
That's a good feature. I always thought e-handbrakes didn't engage when moving, but I've never tried it.

AJB

856 posts

214 months

Monday 12th October 2015
quotequote all
Vanin said:
Surely a handbrake hill start is one of the most difficult things to do when you are a learner.
If you pass a test with an electric park brake and then drive a conventional car I would suggest that you are going to have a few roll back shunts which would make you a bit of a liability.
You'd still have to learn the biting point, extra throttle required, etc..

Personally I found double-declutching down into second whilst braking for a junction harder than hill starts in the knackered old Land Rover I learnt to drive in, hence my earlier comment about not needing a separate licence for non-synchromesh gearboxes.

Ian_H

650 posts

243 months

Monday 12th October 2015
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On my Discovery it has the electronic hand brake which can be used in emergencies and also in the case of a flat battery it has a cable under the cup holders which can be pulled to release it, very near to the release to get it out of park if needed.

Impasse

15,099 posts

240 months

Monday 12th October 2015
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It seems many of the concerns about electric parking brakes are due to unfamiliarity of their operation.

The potential incident in the OP is nothing to do with the handbrake and something to do with poor driving.

Vanin

Original Poster:

1,010 posts

165 months

Tuesday 13th October 2015
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Impasse said:
It seems many of the concerns about electric parking brakes are due to unfamiliarity of their operation.

The potential incident in the OP is nothing to do with the handbrake and something to do with poor driving.
Fair point, but I was not driving and her distraction was understandable

Thank you for all your contributions. I had only seen the electric ones operated briefly and I thought that you were just meant to flick the switch and not hold it on.

Do the brake lights come on with an electric parking brake?

Perhaps the emergency stop scenario described by one poster would be unwelcome if there was a heavily laden white van man right up your derriere. I would like a bit more control but as many of you have pointed out I am a Luddite!

vit4

3,507 posts

169 months

Tuesday 13th October 2015
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Tje said:
I tried it in the golf which has one when driving, at low speed. Just seems to lock the rear wheels up. I'll give it another try seeming as im not resposnsible for the tyres and see what happens.
We had a hire car VW people carrier thing (Sharan? The big one) with an EPB, I was curious as to whether it would come on if you pulled it whilst moving, and can confirm that it does hehe

Honestly though, I can't think of a more pointless feature on a car. There was literally nothing wrong with a conventional handbrake confused