UK Head of Tesla.... Impressive

[RobM77]

kambites said:

RobM77 said:

On a brighter note, I am seeing more and more Teslas as time goes by. I hadn't seen any this time last year, but I'm starting to spot about one a week now.

They're becoming pretty popular at work; there's a good five or something in the car park now, presumably all on the BIK company car scheme.

It's easy to see why, as the range is advertised as 250-odd miles, so all you'd need would be a charging point at home and preferably as work and that's most commuting and customer visits etc sorted. The problem is that it's only most... what do you do if you have a round trip of greater than that without a guaranteed charging point?.. Then there's the small matter of the cost of them - don't they start at around £50k?!

[kambites]

RobM77 said:

It's easy to see why, as the range is advertised as 250-odd miles, so all you'd need would be a charging point at home and preferably as work and that's most commuting and customer visits etc sorted. The problem is that it's only most... what do you do if you have a round trip of greater than that without a guaranteed charging point?.. Then there's the small matter of the cost of them - don't they start at around £50k?!

Very few people where I work use their company cars for business use. It's just a perk.

[kambites]

loose cannon said:

kambites said:

I'd be interested to see if you can find a video of the same from any of the competing ICE powered cars. It's just not something people do with a bloody great luxury saloon car.

Your missing the point I'm talking about the technology not the shape of the car,
I can go out on a Friday evening drive 200 odd miles including a fair few performance blasts and still come back with over half a tank of fuel leaving me with another 150 miles range show me a electric car that can do that !!!

I understand your point, but my point was that to 99% of buyers it doesn't matter because they'll never do that anyway. People just don't buy full sized luxury cars to drive them hard; the Tesla's performance statistics may match up against AMG versions of the E- and S-class but it's really competing with the more powerful diesels.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 13th October 10:27

[Petrol Only]

kambites said:

loose cannon said:

And back in the real world were people don't buy 80k cars

No, they lease them as benefit in kind, where the Tesla costs about the same as a 330i.

The Model-3 will be the make-or-break model. People overuse the term "game changer" but if they can really make that ~£25-30k with a real-world 200 mile range and M3 bothering performance at road speeds it'll be one.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 13th October 10:19

Yep sign me up!

[RobM77]

kambites said:

loose cannon said:

kambites said:

I'd be interested to see if you can find a video of the same from any of the competing ICE powered cars. It's just not something people do with a bloody great luxury saloon car.

Your missing the point I'm talking about the technology not the shape of the car,
I can go out on a Friday evening drive 200 odd miles including a fair few performance blasts and still come back with over half a tank of fuel leaving me with another 150 miles range show me a electric car that can do that !!!

I understand your point, but my point was that to 99% of buyers it doesn't matter because they'll never do that anyway. People just don't buy full sized luxury cars to drive them hard.

And incidentally, surely loose cannon's point is only relevant for a drive of much over 200 miles? Unlike with a petrol or diesel car, with a Tesla your home is effectively the filling station, so in his example you'd come home, plug the car in and wake up with another 250 miles showing on the range?

[KarlMac]

When your as rich as Elon Musk it seems a sensible plan. Build a loss leader in the premium market (low numbers to minimise the loss), once your brand is firmly established as something other than a passing fad (remember Fisker?) you can sell a high end saloon/hatchback and get away with charging a premium.

Really like the Tesla. Seeing lots more around too.

[kambites]

RobM77 said:

And incidentally, surely loose cannon's point is only relevant for a drive of much over 200 miles? Unlike with a petrol or diesel car, with a Tesla your home is effectively the filling station, so in his example you'd come home, plug the car in and wake up with another 250 miles showing on the range?

Assuming one has somewhere convenient to charge it at home, yes.

[loose cannon]

Your still missing the point,a Luxo barge isn't a normal car for normal people, were is the electric car that does what I have just mentioned In a practical smallish car for the masses, There isn't one is there ? I'm sure eventually there will be
But until the day I can buy a normal sized car at a normal price point that will do a minimum of 350 miles with as comparable performance and I mean comparable not 3 blasts then crawl at a snail pace for the rest of it performance I'm just not really that interested tbh

[RobM77]

kambites said:

RobM77 said:

It's easy to see why, as the range is advertised as 250-odd miles, so all you'd need would be a charging point at home and preferably as work and that's most commuting and customer visits etc sorted. The problem is that it's only most... what do you do if you have a round trip of greater than that without a guaranteed charging point?.. Then there's the small matter of the cost of them - don't they start at around £50k?!

Very few people where I work use their company cars for business use. It's just a perk.

And I suppose at the weekend if they want to visit relatives more than 125 miles away, they just take their other half's car? Like owning a sports car I suppose. EVs will really take off if they can continue increasing that range, but crucially also make charging points more commonplace. On that note (or leaf? ), imagine if you were visiting relatives who also had a charging point? Instant doubling of range to go and see them for the day. I assume that it's the fear of being stuck with no charge that stops most people buying an EV.

[RobM77]

loose cannon said:

Your still missing the point,a Luxo barge isn't a normal car for normal people, were is the electric car that does what I have just mentioned In a practical smallish car for the masses, There isn't one is there ? I'm sure eventually there will be
But until the day I can buy a normal sized car at a normal price point that will do a minimum of 350 miles with as comparable performance and I mean comparable not 3 blasts then crawl at a snail pace for the rest of it performance I'm just not really that interested tbh

There's the Nissan Leaf, Golf etc, but as you rightly point out, their range is much lower and they're still a bit pricey compared with their petrol equivalents. The time will come though; much like the early days of anything, the products will start of as feasible in features but too expensive, or low on features and still a bit pricey (think of the early days of the home computer for example), but that will change with time.

The elephant in the room is of course where the electricity comes from. On that note, does anyone know the true CO2 output of a Tesla, if charged in the UK? Genuine question; I've no idea if it's 1g/km or 200!

[rodericb]

Ares said:

No, their supercharger network (23 sites in the UK, 300+ worldwide) is free to use. Free. As in no cost, for the lifetime of the car. And a full charge in 20mins.

Are you paying for it in the price of the car? The prices didn't go up when it was launched, but when the Model S is actually getting close to similar costs like for like with ICE competitors, its an increasingly compelling argument.

About that: Tesla has emailed heavy users of superchargers in the US to curb their usage. But regarding the free supercharger thing it seems odd that buyers of those reasonably expensive cars get themselves into such a creamy lather about not having to pay for a couple of bucks worth of electricity.

[anonymous-user]

Ares said:

Heard the UK Head of Tesla speak last night (having driven 250miles up from London in an 85D, totally free of cost and not set off fully charged).

Impressive guy and an impressive car as well as business model.

His middle of the range Model S hits 60 in 4 secs, the slightly hotter version does it in 2.8 secs.


But the free to use, supercharging network was something I didn't realise existed. Full charge in 20 mins and totally free to use/charge. True zero-cost motoring. The case for EVs gets stronger.

Impressive guy?

Yes totally free of cost, save for the £100,000 needed to buy one, tyres etc. Other than that absolutely free

[RVVUNM]

I was in Amsterdam last weekend and there are a lot of Tesla's being used as taxi's. Must be doing something right.

[kambites]

RobM77 said:

And I suppose at the weekend if they want to visit relatives more than 125 miles away, they just take their other half's car

Probably. My relatives which live within driving range all have either a drive or a garage where I could charge an EV.

[pherlopolus]

KarlMac said:

When your as rich as Elon Musk it seems a sensible plan. Build a loss leader in the premium market (low numbers to minimise the loss), once your brand is firmly established as something other than a passing fad (remember Fisker?) you can sell a high end saloon/hatchback and get away with charging a premium.

Really like the Tesla. Seeing lots more around too.

I think he never planned to make a profit, he did it to push other manufacturers to make cars to compete and to drive the technology uptake.

If he did it to make a profit, he shouldn't have opened up the patents to the world

[Guvernator]

Yep I am seeing more Tesla's on the road but not seeing how people are making the numbers add up tbh. I looked into running one through the company, they are an expensive car so leasing costs are £700+ a month for a decent spec which MIGHT have been justified when they attracted zero BIK but that is now 5% and going up to 16% in the next 5 years, that's a lot of tax to pay on a £80k plus car!

If\when EV's reach a point of critical mass, they'll be taxed to the rafters just like any other petrol\diesel car is now. People didn't seriously think the government were going to miss out on all that lovely tax did they? The idea of "free" or even cheap motoring for EV's will soon become a myth.

[kambites]

I'm pretty sure the government will act to keep the running cost gap between (privately owned, BIK is another matter) EVs and ICEs the same, whilst maintaining their overall take take. So yes EVs are going to get more expensive to run but so are ICEs.

Basically, I think all of the fuel taxes will stay roughly as they are now and road charging of all vehicles will be slowly ramped up to cover the tax short-fall caused by EVs.

[walm]

RobM77 said:

The elephant in the room is of course where the electricity comes from. On that note, does anyone know the true CO2 output of a Tesla, if charged in the UK? Genuine question; I've no idea if it's 1g/km or 200!

16g per kWh for nuclear.
300kw batteries which get you about 3 miles/kwh.
So 16g gets you 3 miles.
So roughly 5g/mile 3.3g/km.

The worst is coal at 900g/kWh so you need to multiply the above by c.50.

The average for the UK is I think 460g/kwh so roughly 100g/km.

Obviously the govt is trying to get more lower carbon power into the grid so that should improve.

[walm]

pherlopolus said:

If he did it to make a profit, he shouldn't have opened up the patents to the world

That depends.
As you can see from just this thread there is a lot of opposition from people who are worried about range.
If you encourage other OEMs to go EV then the supercharger network will accelerate its roll out.
If there were multiple 20min charging points at every petrol station then range becomes almost irrelevant and barriers to adoption drop - and Tesla sell more cars even with the increased competition.

Although I suspect kambites is right about his battery ambitions.

[larrylamb11]

I think the primary point being missed here is that Tesla is primarily an ENERGY company that happen to make cars.... The focus is really on more efficient, more sustainable, more flexible energy delivery, storage and supply - they just happen to be applying that to the automotive industry primarily. Their network of FREE super chargers (that really do cost nothing to use) are fed by renewable energy, solar farms, wind farms and the like - there is a trick there as they are building infrastructure subsidised by govt. which I suspect is part of the wider plan to be a wholesale energy provider / supplier. They are already well down the road of developing domestic 'power packs', battery units to subsidise domestic energy use (and these will take the end-of-life batteries out of Tesla cars as they don't require the same level of battery performance) and will be diversifying into other areas.

I would not be quick to dismiss Tesla as a doomed business model making gimmick cars running at a loss.... in real terms its still very early in the development cycle of this technology and the potential is there to truly revolutionise energy use, production and efficiency with a true quantum leap forward - think development of the ICE over the steam age, we could very easily be witnessing the beginning of a new era and Tesla are fundamental in driving that. They have the first-mover advantage and will dominate the sector as a result. They can afford to run at a loss in the early years IF we are looking at a new industrial revolution as they will become a mega-corp. further down the line.... their business model looks like it is being positioned for that.